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Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by pc86 on Friday February 22, 2013 @11:03AM (#5264876)
I don't know if this is a Silicon Valley thing or what, but the idea that someone would basically do a day's unpaid work on projects they know nothing about with three different people is just about the most foreign thing I can think of.

That being said, I've never done any pairing so maybe it would work better in that type of environment.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by pseut on Friday February 22, 2013 @12:10PM (#5265275)
A job interview is going to take at least a day of your time anyway. What does it matter if that time is spent programming, talking over coffee, sketching on a whiteboard, or whatever?
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by ry0ohki on Friday February 22, 2013 @04:29PM (#5266970)
Pretend it's not tech, and Starbucks interview consisted of you working as a barista for a day, or Goldman Sachs wanted you to trade stocks for a day, etc...
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by crazygringo on Friday February 22, 2013 @05:28PM (#5267319)
I will tell you, back when I bartended in New York (10 years ago), it was pretty common to spend a day or two being "tested" as you made drinks for customers, until they decided you were worth hiring. You wouldn't even keep tips, since they'd test you out just on drinks made for tables, or whatnot.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by dyno12345 on Friday February 22, 2013 @05:32PM (#5267337)
Yes, but during a trial period don't you get paid?
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by crazygringo on Friday February 22, 2013 @07:00PM (#5267769)
Nope. No wage, no tips. In my case it lasted two nights only, and was paid the third night (and making the big bucks on weekend nights within a couple of months), but I'd heard of it being as long as a week at other places.

The worst part was, you wouldn't even know how long the trial period was -- they'd just ask you, last minute, if you could come in again for another trial. If it's a place you wanted to work at eventually, you'd say yes.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by tatsuke95 on Friday February 22, 2013 @10:29PM (#5268420)
>"Nope. No wage, no tips."

That sounds illegal, at least here in Canada.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by dyno12345 on Friday February 22, 2013 @11:28PM (#5268564)
Sounds illegal in most jurisdictions that I'm familiar with

The food service industry in the US has never had much interest in labor laws I guess

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by lrobb on Saturday February 23, 2013 @02:58PM (#5271209)
It's illegal in the US as well.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by InvisibleCities on Friday February 22, 2013 @06:12PM (#5267546)
You still get tips, which generally outweigh your hourly rate anyway.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by hmsimha on Saturday February 23, 2013 @04:10AM (#5269079)
Starbucks isn't going to bother to fly a potential barista to their location, have several managers assess their ability to perform as a barista, and buy them lunch. As someone looking for a job in the tech industry right now, if a company was willing to pay my transportation costs to interview with them and buy me lunch, I would consider that a fair deal. Even if I didn't get the job, I would be out a day or two of my time (during which I'd be able to scope out the city they were located in anyway) and they'd be out anywhere from hundreds to a few thousand dollars. If they got any value from my work while being assessed, I imagine they would want me on their team.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by pseut on Friday February 22, 2013 @05:00PM (#5267164)
I'm not sure that I have a constructive way of replying to this. Can you spell out your objections, instead of trying to jostle my imagination?

You act like no one's been fired after their first day at Starbucks.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by ry0ohki on Friday February 22, 2013 @07:39PM (#5267912)
My point is that having someone work a day for free would be great in any industry, but somehow only we in tech tolerate this, why is it different?
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by pseut on Friday February 22, 2013 @11:38PM (#5268590)
Having a random applicant "work" a day for free is a pretty crappy proposition in most industries; I suspect tech isn't much different. You gave an example of asking a job applicant for goldman sachs to "trade stocks for a day." Are you kidding? Do you realize how much money a bad applicant could lose in a day? If it's different in tech, it's only because it's (often) easy and painless to roll back an applicant's mistakes.

There are a few ways to approach a job interview. The one I like is to say, "I'm a professional working in this area; those people are professionals working in this area; I should learn what they're up to and we should see if it makes sense for us to work together right now" and right now is key, because sometimes the timing or the particular projects aren't a good match, but the people are and you'll want to stay in touch in the future.

One nice non-coincidental advantage of treating it this way is that "success" is a lot easier to achieve, so the interview's going to be a lot less stressful.

So now approach it from that perspective. You could spend a day (or two hours, or two days, or whatever interview duration) chit chatting, talking to HR people about benefits, describing past projects and whatever. But time is really short and the important questions are: what are you actually going to be working on? and are the people you'll be working with any good? Are their experience, personality, skills, etc. going to set you up to do well, help your career, get stuff out the door, and whatever other concerns you have. How are you possibly going to learn any of that without talking to them at length and in detail about their projects? And the best way to "talk in detail" is to pretend you have the job for a day and get up to speed.

So are you now "working a day for free?" Not really. Because, if the people you're interviewing with are people you'd want to work with, they've had a lot longer than you to think about their problems and know a shitload about them. If you contribute anything of value that day, they probably would have gotten as much value from talking their sticking points over with any bright, engaged outsider to get a fresh perspective.

In the rare occasions where the applicant really does provide high value consulting for free for a day, he or she should have known better than to interview there in the first place. If there really was no way to know in advance, just accept that you had a dud of an interview and go on with your life. You've still learned whether that particular company is one you'd want to have a business relationship with in the future, which is valuable, and whether any of their employees are particularly good or bad, which is also valuable; and, if the company has the right values, there's a good chance that they'd want to hire you for contract work. So even those interviews still tend to work out.

tl;dr - when you interview for a job, no matter what, you're working. You'll get the most out of it as an interviewee if you take it seriously as work and try to get as close to the day-to-day job as you possibly can. If the company materially benefits as well, even better.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by donw on Saturday February 23, 2013 @03:35PM (#5271366)
Exactly. An interview is work, on both sides of the table, and I see no point in distancing that work from what we actually expect the candidate to do once they get hired.

Puzzles, whiteboard coding, and so on don't tell me whether or not somebody can actually build software.

If the goal was to get free work, we wouldn't sacrifice staff time on the interviews. We'd give the applicant a challenging "homework" assignment and ask them to do it on their own time.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by benihana on Friday February 22, 2013 @05:30PM (#5267331)
It is tech though. So why does pretending it's not have any bearing on the problem?
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by brown9-2 on Friday February 22, 2013 @03:41PM (#5266636)
Well with a "regular" interview, it's pretty unlikely that the company is going to make any money off of the direct output of the interview. When helping them develop a feature or product, it's slightly different.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by pseut on Friday February 22, 2013 @04:26PM (#5266949)
And...?

I'm in academia. I've had job interviews where I've literally gone office to office discussing people's research projects and helping them come up with ideas. It was fun, and it never occurred to me that I was being taken advantage of. Worst case scenario, they might think of me as a potential consultant down the line.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by ebiester on Friday February 22, 2013 @03:14PM (#5266479)
Many interviews I've had are 2 hour affairs, including jobs I've received where interviews were 45 minutes.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by pseut on Friday February 22, 2013 @03:34PM (#5266601)
I guess it depends on the position, but the point still stands. Given that you spend x amount of time interviewing, what does it matter how it's spent? (with the obvious caveats that if they spend, say, 3 hours screaming at you as a stress test, you probably don't want to work there, etc etc).
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by ben1040 on Friday February 22, 2013 @11:30AM (#5265073)
>I don't know if this is a Silicon Valley thing or what, but the idea that someone would basically do a day's unpaid work on projects they know nothing about with three different people is just about the most foreign thing I can think of.

Yep. That basically amounts to an application fee.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by jasonshen on Friday February 22, 2013 @01:42PM (#5265820)
If you think it costs you something to be interviewed (thus your suggestion about an application fee) it certainly costs the company at least that much if not more. They are paying their staff to work with you on something that likely will not produce direct value for the company (usually a throwaway project or trivial task)

Plus they will spend time before and after the interview discussing your qualifications, performance etc. It comes out about even.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by dyno12345 on Friday February 22, 2013 @05:35PM (#5267345)
The candidate is taking a much bigger risk.

If the job doesn't work out, they lose small% of potential productivity, while you will lose 100% of your income.

Companies have numerous employees, but you only have one employer. You bet everything on your employer, they only bet a small part of their hand on you.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by pi18n on Saturday February 23, 2013 @07:54AM (#5269525)
The company is expected to have costs when hiring, it isn't appropriate to push them onto the applicants by having them work it off.

What if a company gave you an itemized bill after your interview? You're still exchanging something of value for their time; is that reasonable or ridiculous?

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by rboyd on Friday February 22, 2013 @01:53PM (#5265900)
By this logic the candidate should pay half of travel and hotel too.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by nitrogen on Friday February 22, 2013 @02:22PM (#5266139)
Usually the candidate pays all of it.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by saryant on Friday February 22, 2013 @02:53PM (#5266336)
Really?

Of the three job interviews I've traveled for in the last year, all were paid by the company 100%.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by nickbarnwell on Friday February 22, 2013 @03:37PM (#5266616)
Seconding this; even for internships I've not once paid for travel costs. Everyone from small, YC startups up to MS/Google paid for cab fare, flights, and hotels.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by doktrin on Friday February 22, 2013 @05:48PM (#5267424)
This is highly unusual (if not unheard of).

A company would have to be pretty damn unique in order to justify having candidates pay for their own travel + lodging.

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by nitrogen on Saturday February 23, 2013 @02:05AM (#5268849)
Most jobs are not provided by SV companies or Microsoft. Most prople are not in a career that typically hires from across the country at their own expense. Paid travel is a luxury enjoyed by a small segment of job candidates.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by doktrin on Saturday February 23, 2013 @06:54AM (#5269406)
Expanding the scope of discussion to all jobs is disingenuous. It's pretty clear this thread (not to mention this forum) is fairly software centric.

Regardless, companies across just about all industries that hire from remote talent pools will pay for travel (consulting, finance, government, NGOs, banking, accounting, manufacturing, insurance, you-name-it).

Whether or not a given company expands its talent search to include workers in distant locations is bound by several factors, none of which are unique to "SV and Microsoft".

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by walshemj on Friday February 22, 2013 @02:16PM (#5266097)
Which is strictly forbidden in most jurisdictions.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by einhverfr on Saturday February 23, 2013 @03:05AM (#5268952)
It depends on how it is structured.

I doubt there would be anything wrong with saying "we maintain open source project X and we only hire people who have made submissions in this project that we have accepted. If you want to be considered for employment, you must first get involved in the community."

Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by mleach on Friday February 22, 2013 @11:41AM (#5265126)
There is more "soft skill" assessment going on with pair programming than "hard skills".
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by hexagonc on Friday February 22, 2013 @01:37PM (#5265789)
I doubt that work important to the company is done this way. Otherwise, they'd expose proprietary information. Of course, I could be wrong.
Re:Why we don't hire programmers based on puzzles and tricks by jasonlotito on Friday February 22, 2013 @01:50PM (#5265883)
Spending a day doing useless work is worse.