Whenever I engage with BTC, "easy" is the last thing that I experience. Let's say that someone wants to start using bitcoin: it's as simple as downloading the software, double clicking on the icon, and... waiting 24hours or more for the block chain to sync, while the i/o volume on their disk goes through the roof.

Once you finally accomplish that, you can purchase some bitcoins, which involves... this: https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20490576-Withdrawals-and-D...

A few days later, you finally have BTC in your wallet, so it's time to start your bitcoin client again and use them. You double click on the icon and... wait 30min to 1hr for the block chain to sync.

Finally, you're ready to send them. Let's say you want to buy some music online, so you send BTC to an address that was generated by the site you're purchasing from and... wait 50 minutes to get enough verified transactions before they finally send you the music.

All of this would be completely impossible on a mobile device.

There are plenty of ideas for making bitcoin more usable, but they all unfortunately involve mitigating the strengths of the bitcoin as a concept.

"Waiting 24 hours or more for the blockchain to sync..."

Wrong client. Try blockchain.info. Instant sync.

"You can purchase some bitcoins, which involves..."

Wrong method. Try BitInstant. Instant.

"Wait 50 minutes to get enough verified transactions..."

Could be a few seconds. As a seller, you can choose the number of verifications you wait for. My web shop waits for the first only (fine for sub $100 purchases), so verification takes about 5 seconds. If you wait for 10 verifications, well, yeah it's going to take a while, but you don't need that level of security unless you're buying a house.

"All of this would be completely impossible on a mobile device."

Er... Google "site:play.google.com bitcoin"

Loads of mobile wallets.

Yes, again, I totally agree that there many ideas for making bitcoin more usable, but they all unfortunately tend to undermine bitcoin.

Bitcoin's fundamental core strength is being distributed. That's also the thing that makes it mostly unusable.

Sure, if I just trust someone else to manage my wallet and verify the block chain for me, it becomes usable. This is the exact reason why people keep getting taken by bad "online wallet" services -- they can't bear to do it themselves.

Mobile wallets are a great example. There are two types of mobile wallets: the kind that wingnuts struggle through using because they're bitcoin fanatics, and the kind that are actually interesting for people drawn to convenience. The former actually verify the block chain, the latter are a thin client over an API to someone else that's managing that off the device.

Bitcoin is distributed, and some people choosing to yield their micromanaged control to enjoy the dividends of convenience does not make the system any less distributed.

With Bitcoin you CAN run your own node, you CAN mine your own blocks, you CAN verify the integrity of every transaction that every person has ever made in the blockchain, but that does not mean that you HAVE to do these things. Because this is an open-source currency, WHEN you choose to yield to a third party, you get to choose one based on their merits because the barrier to entry to become a service provider is so low, thus competition is fierce. Compare with the banking oligopoly.

This is on par with Linux. You CAN build every binary on your machine from source, but you do not HAVE to and most people choose to yield their compiling duties to distributions and just install pre-cooked binaries. The benefits of open source continue to shine upon these people, because they get to choose their distribution, and they benefit from the fruits of the bazaar development model even when they are not actively engaging in it.

If you use blockchain.info you're depending on a central server. Might as well use paypal— at least they are regulated.

The multibit client is a much better, though still reduced-security, option.

The sync comments there are outdated— I installed a new Bitcoin node two days ago and the sync only took about 2 hours from nothing.

Was that running bitcoind on a server somewhere, or on a consumer laptop with a home internet connection?

Even if it "only took about 2 hours," we're living in a world where companies are living and dying by shaving 30ms off page load times and a/b testing the color of their signup buttons.

Blockchain.info gets you a free wallet. Signed client-side so they can't mess with it. You don't need to run the "client" (which is really a "node") at all. The fact that this is not communicated well is a communication problem more than a technical one.

localbitcoins.com if you want to buy some from anyone in the neighborhood.

The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use.

It's true that if you re-centralize things by trusting someone else with your wallet, or outsourcing block chain verification to a central party, then it can be quite usable.

From what I can tell, nobody is entirely comfortable with the direction that's headed, which is why there's a lot of handwaving about things like javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work.

localbitcoins is cool, but a friend bought some BTC off me the other day, and it took over an hour (for the above reasons).

Don't get me wrong, I think all of this is really interesting and amazing in a lot of ways, but not "easy peasy" as the parent commenter was saying.

> The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use.

This to me highlights just about everything there is to know about Bitcoin. People are too easily turned off by the amount of effort it takes to properly command a Bitcoin wallet. At least with the traditional banking system, a big bank is there to lend you a hand should you need anything or should something go wrong with one of your transactions.

But there's a big tradeoff: when you utilize the traditional banking system, you must entrust at least some of your wealth to an entity you have absolutely zero control over.

Right now that's fine, but personally I like the idea of keeping external dependencies to a minimum, especially when it comes to money.

The price of Bitcoin remains affordable for now, and will continue to do so as long as people don't have a compelling reason to get off their behinds. For some perspective, the Bitcoin market cap is $332M. At a $1000M ($1B) market cap and ~12.8M BTC in circulation, the price per Bitcoin would be roughly $78. At a $10B market cap it would be $780. The market cap of Facebook is $68.7B. When you compare a global financial system with censorship resistant properties (Bitcoin), and give it a valuation six times less than a global social network (Facebook), 1 BTC is still worth $780. If Bitcoin is 60X less valuable to the world than Facebook, it's $78/coin. 120X less valuable and it's $39/coin. Meaning if Bitcoin truly provides the world less than 1% of the value of Facebook then it's still undervalued at $30.

IMO the world is practically crying out for an alternative financial system free from high risk banking, but I digress. Average people will not actively seek any competing financial system Bitcoin included until they have a compelling motivation eating away at them 24/7. There are scenarios which could create those circumstances, but they're long shots that hinge upon various social, economic and political factors at some vague point in the distant future. I can at least see Bitcoin having a $1B market cap for now, but for BTC to really come into its own, average people will need to get off their behinds. In other words, don't count on it.

Still the market cap of Apple is $450+ billion, and I'd like to think a global Internet currency/financial system is worth at least 10% of that to our society.

> javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work

LOL... Blockchain.info has over 120,000 users which disagree with you.

As the old saying goes, "the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on".

There is so much misunderstanding around cryptography.

Steps To Hack Blockchain.info

1) Discover a zero-day exploit in the operating system that Blockchain.info runs on

2) Hack it

3) Compromise the javascript that it delivers to the client

4) For the next 10 minutes or so (or up to the point the hack is discovered), anyone who logs into Blockchain.info via the web app and types in their password is compromised. Period.

Now, granted, this won't affect EVERYONE who has a Blockchain.info account, only the ones who log in while it's hacked.

Please see any of the very many recent in-depth discussions about the security of webapp-based cryptography. Sure, it "works" in the sense that it's very easy to use, but it is by no means secure.

I'm sure all of those other "online wallet" services that lost or disappeared with everyone's BTC also had plenty of users.

Moxie, given your background in cryptography, do you have any ideas on how the Bitcoin community could improve the user experience without compromising security?

So use the Blockchain.info browser extension, instead.

you realize that they dont have your private key right? and that you can verify the javascript wasnt poisoned by having a hash of the legit javascript and comparing it? with a handy toolbar?

You make some valid points regarding the inverse relationship between convenience and security with bitcoin. However, the latest version (0.8.0) of the bitcoin reference client is a significant improvement in terms of initial syncing speed and overall optimization. Being experimental software, there is still room for improvement.

easy is achieveable.

wallet - use blockchain, no need to sync, or on your desktop the electrum client, alternatively in the official client it will be much faster from version 0.8.

buying BTC from mtgox sucks, buy them from bitcoin-otc, localbitcoins.com or other private selelrs for a much easier and quicker transaction.

You can do this on a mobile device, I buy of bitmit.net and only use my smartphone to do so.

Regarding your claim of waiting 50 minutes for some music, I dont nknow what site you are using but i bet most music download sites would only require 1 or 2 confirmatons so 10 - 20 mins

"EASY PEASY to use... much easier than papal, credit cards, or even cash!"

99.9% of the purchases I make do not accept Bitcoins. This makes them several orders of magnitude less useful for me than either cash or my VISA card.

Good point- Can't argue with you there.

This ease of use is certainly attractive. Try sending a couple of BTC to a poker room online, and then cash out your winnings and have that BTC within your wallet in a matter of hours max, not days!

I can't wait till I can buy coffee and rent with BTC, it might never happen but I like the idea.

You know, I was buying a sandwich with cash at Subway today and I suddenly thought "you know, this would actually be less cumbersome with bitcoins."

if only the banking world had thought of a way to pay for things without cash..

Yes, they came up with a very tedious and complex way.

Swipe card here is very tedious and complex I must say.

Fair enough... but you're acting like that card in your hand just appeared out of thin air. Are you saying you've never had a bad experience with a credit card company?

Not the person you're replying to, but I never have. Chase has been very friendly to me and even gave me a credit extension when I needed a new computer. Their customer support has always been helpful, and I have the security of chargebacks should someone scam me.

Then again, the person you're replying to was probably talking about debit cards, which don't come with the same securities as credit cards but are just as easy to use and don't charge interest. So really, one must wonder why you weren't using a debit card if bitcoins would offer you an easier experience than cash?

I was referring to both, I don't see much difference in the end user experience.

I am curious though, what is availability to you guys in the states? Does every store accept eftpos(debit)/credit? Here in NZ you cannot get away with not accepting eftpos (nobody carries cash really.) While in Australia I know you'll be hard pressed even finding a store that accepts it. Wondering if maybe the frustration displayed above was directed at the implementation/adoption you guys have.

Availability is almost ubiquitous. There are some places—"trendy" stores in urban areas, ma-and-pa stores in rural—that don't accept credit/debit cards for various reasons. The further away from a city you go, the more likely you are to be stuck in a place that's cash-only, but there's almost always a store that accepts it somewhere around you.

The frustration was probably due to implementation. Every store, even stores in the same franchise, handle cards differently. Some don't make you sign under a certain dollar amount (an amount that's different in each store), some let you swipe before the person is done ringing you up, some have annoying menus you have to trawl through (supermarkets are known for this... "Would you like to donate $1 to the X charity for sick X's? [YES] [NO, I AM HEARTLESS]"), some require you to tell the cashier if you want credit or debit, some make you show them your card (GameStop). There are even some that need to bust out one of these: http://i.imgur.com/EDlLYt9.jpg

For me, at least, it's still easier than dealing with cash.

Actually no, the only contact I've ever had with Visa was when I got mugged, and when they denied a 50c itunes purchase I made in my sleep [read some chech IP address and under a generic name], both times they were very helpful, cancelled my card and sent me a new one right away free of charge.

Regarding the apparent way I was acting I have no fucking clue what you're talking about. The bank sent it in the mail, how else would they get it to me. How is this complex or tedious, if I wanted it faster I could have gone down there and picked it up myself.

The backend is more complicated, involving databases that determine your creditworthiness, plastic cards, communication networks, monthly billing, fraud prevention, ...

All those things will happen to bitcoin if it ever gets anywhere close to being used as a real world currency.

You're comparing a completely regulated system against a completely unregulated system, one which also happens to be brand spanking new.

You're also bringing lines of credit into this for some reason, if you think people are just going to hand you out free bitcoin for your to pay back at a later date without wanting to know your credit worthiness I'm not sure how to explain things to you in a way you'll understand.

Along the lines of the real world PITA you acknowledged at the end: getting dollars out of mtgox is a nightmare and don't expect for a second that you won't be giving up all your info to the government.

I had some BTC lying around there for a year or so. When I came back, they had upgraded their security methods to the point where I had to:

-submit proof of residence

-submit a valid photo ID

-wait several days

-ask for verification on dwolla

-wait several days

In addition, there is a disclaimer on mtgox explicitly forbidding Tor and using proxies. There's not a shred of anonymity in this process.

Could this be used (wholesale) to get around the US ban on online gambling? I read that the major sites were busted and execs taken to US courts but maybe this is more secure and harder to track? Probably enough serious gamblers and gambling sites will probably take the chance with currency fluctuations.

Not in itself: Bitcoins are actually embarrassingly easy to track (the full transaction history is available to anyone.) However, you can certainly go through some extra hoops to make tracking more difficult.

Bitcoins are easy to track to Bitcoin addresses. Connecting these addresses with any useful data (like someone's identity) is more difficult.

Surely this only holds until you want to convert into local currency?

yes, that's the crux of the problem.

Have you been living under a rock? Just about all the online gambling sites have BTC projects either in the works or already out there.

Yes, the major bitcoin gambling site SatoshiDice is making loads of money already.

http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/bitcoin-casino-105204