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Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by CodeMage on Friday February 15, 2013 @06:54AM (#5225704)
This is certainly an interesting study, but I can't help being seriously disappointed by this part:

Sometimes when I hear people railing against porn, declaring it as the downfall of society, a poison infecting masculine minds and demeaning female ones, I wonder what kind of porn they’re talking about.

[...]

So when I hear somebody claim that porn is ‘degrading’, I can’t help but ask: which porn?

If you think most porn isn't degrading, then you need to look a bit closer and think a little harder. I've already posted my views [1], but I'll copy & paste the relevant part here:

First of all, there's very little porn out there where the woman truly enjoys the experience. It's not always glaringly obvious (although we'll get back to that in the next point), but if you actually stop and look, you'll see the discomfort and/or indifference very often.

Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc.

Third, even the porn that doesn't focus on pain teaches wrong stuff. One might get the idea that the only thing a man need do to make a woman enjoy sex is to pound her fast and hard. On top of that comes the whole issue of hygiene: the way anal is portrayed means that if you try it at home, your female partner will likely end up with an infection.

Fourth, it creates unrealistic expectations. Let's just say that gag reflex is not as easy to suppress as the porn makes you believe and that anal sex is not a matter of just sliding in any time you want.

TL;DR: No, it's not just about whether the sex if fun or boring.

Finally, I find the claim that "female porn stars dictate the type of sex they have by listing in their modelling profiles the acts they’re willing to perform on camera" to be disingenuous. It propagates the idea that everything is okay and whatever isn't okay is "her fault".

[1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4499803

EDIT: Since I'm obviously not trolling, I was wondering whether anyone could help explain the drive-by downvoting. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it might be nicer to have a discussion than to suppress it ;)

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by jules on Friday February 15, 2013 @09:05AM (#5226181)
> Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc.

I might be mistaken here, but as far as I can tell this kind of porn is the minority. Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded? Whether you like it or not, the power dynamic is an integral part of human sexuality. That you see this in porn is just an effect of the phenomenon, not the cause. It's completely natural and benign. People saying that this is "wrong" and taboo are doing far more harm than good to the women and men (!) who enjoy being on that side of the power dynamic.

Secondly, porn isn't meant to be realistic. Complaining about that is just like the people complaining about violence in video games and movies. People are perfectly capable of distinguishing reality from fiction. The reason people enjoy porn is exactly because it is not realistic -- it satisfies a fantasy, whether that is sex with a person who is far out of your league, or rough sex, or otherwise. The way to go here is to improve sex education, not to blame porn for not being sex education.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by jseliger on Friday February 15, 2013 @10:21AM (#5226553)
>I might be mistaken here, but as far as I can tell this kind of porn is the minority. Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded?

I've dated women (note the plural) who were into this sort of porn. I'm not a random sample, obviously, but take a look at books like A Billion Wicked Thoughts and The Evolutionary Biology of Human Female Sexuality, or Meredith Chivers' work: bdsm-style desires appear to be more common than is commonly depicted in the media.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by jules on Friday February 15, 2013 @10:32AM (#5226609)
Yes, it is far more common than people think and admit, and it really shouldn't be a taboo (like it is for women, but perhaps even more so for men). However, I do think that if you look at all the porn combined, this is a minority.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by AJ007 on Friday February 15, 2013 @02:50PM (#5228110)
From my experience both first hand and watching other relationships females are waaaaaaay more interested in abusive, degrading sex than guys.

In terms of why a large amount of porn is like this, its simple, its theatrics. Emotion and body language is exaggerated to capture an audiences attention.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by Zimahl on Friday February 15, 2013 @12:23PM (#5227202)
bdsm-style desires appear to be more common than is commonly depicted in the media.

It has become only less taboo to talk about recently, coming to the mainstream in books like "Fifty Shades of Grey".

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by fluidcruft on Friday February 15, 2013 @11:25AM (#5226922)
I'm skeptical of your claim which implies that this type of porn is predominantly marketed to and consumed by women.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by Retric on Friday February 15, 2013 @01:36PM (#5227630)
I think your misreading the comment. It's a classic case of rule 34 somewhere someone is into this crap and it you don't need a lot of customers to make money with porn. I mean being eaten by alive is a fetish vore. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vore
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by mistercow on Saturday February 16, 2013 @09:15AM (#5231520)
>Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded?

It's for both. There is an entire subculture of people whose fetishes involve degradation on either side. Two important points to take from that:

1) It is silly to extrapolate to all porn from that. Those genres are targeted at relatively small demographics.

2) The fetish has nothing to do with those people's attitudes about society at large. Men who are into degrading consenting women in the bedroom are not, by and large, misogynists, for example. It's a sexual fantasy, not a political stance.

However, fetishes notwithstanding, I don't think it can be said that most mainstream porn is sex-positive or embraces healthy attitudes.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by CodeMage on Friday February 15, 2013 @02:46PM (#5228077)
Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded?

I'm not sure I understood you correctly. Are you suggesting that "Hot Japanese Girls [sic] gets fucked and abused in every way" is marketed primarily to people who identify with abused women?

But again, the videos that explicitly and specifically portray violent and/or degrading male fantasies don't bother me as much as so-called "normal" videos that seriously misrepresent what is enjoyable to most women.

Whether you like it or not, the power dynamic is an integral part of human sexuality. That you see this in porn is just an effect of the phenomenon, not the cause. It's completely natural and benign. People saying that this is "wrong" and taboo are doing far more harm than good to the women and men (!) who enjoy being on that side of the power dynamic.

Something tells me that men and women who enjoy being on the submissive (or "less powerful", if you prefer) side of the power dynamic are still the minority of the market. While I'm sure that there are people who watch Mandingo videos because they identify with the lady or because they enjoy watching big penises, I'm pretty sure that most people who watch it are men who like to identify with Mandingo and fantasize about having a penis that big.

So, to sum it up, I don't claim that it's wrong or "taboo" to be on the less powerful side of the power dynamic. Hell, there's nothing bad with fantasizing about being on the more powerful side or about having a huge penis or what have you.

Secondly, porn isn't meant to be realistic. Complaining about that is just like the people complaining about violence in video games and movies. People are perfectly capable of distinguishing reality from fiction.

I wouldn't be so quick to equate these things. It's a lot easier for kids to confirm that the world is not really violent in the same degree and way as videogames than it is for them to find out what women find enjoyable in sex.

The way to go here is to improve sex education, not to blame porn for not being sex education.

Precisely, but how? How do you improve teaching kids about sex in terms of pleasure, not only reproduction and health, which seems to be what most sex ed focuses on?

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by henrikschroder on Friday February 15, 2013 @10:09AM (#5226489)
> First of all, there's very little porn out there where the woman truly enjoys the experience.

There's a lot of porn out there that has no women at all in it.

I agree with you that there is a lot of bad porn, and that there are a lot of bad things prevalent in porn, but that specific point of the author stands pretty strong. You have to preface the discussion by asking "which porn?". In your comment you've already narrowed your definition of "porn" into a specific segment.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by TDL on Friday February 15, 2013 @10:24AM (#5226568)
'Finally, I find the claim that "female porn stars dictate the type of sex they have by listing in their modelling profiles the acts they’re willing to perform on camera" to be disingenuous. It propagates the idea that everything is okay and whatever isn't okay is "her fault".'

I honestly don't understand how you come the conclusion that women controlling their working conditions ends up propagating victim blaming in sexual assaults. Hopefully you can clarify.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by sergiotapia on Friday February 15, 2013 @10:14AM (#5226512)
Downvoted you because of this gem:

>Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc.

---

You're searching for that specific type of porn - of course it's going to be degrading. Your whole argument falls flat on it's face I'm afraid.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by CodeMage on Friday February 15, 2013 @01:49PM (#5227710)
Why on earth would you draw the conclusion that I came up with that because I search for that kind of porn? Let me put it this way: if you go to a store looking for chocolate and there's a lot of products with hazelnuts and you remark on that, would you expect anyone to jump at you and say "That's because you were looking for chocolate with hazelnuts"?
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by fluidcruft on Friday February 15, 2013 @11:22AM (#5226898)
I think the point is the relative proportion of available/consumed porn that falls into these categories. Anecdotally, I agree with CodeMage that this sort of porn seems to be the predominant form (at least within the commercial variety of porn advertised on the internet). Perhaps what's needed is some sort of measurement of the different classifications. I really think you should address the point of proportion of this type of porn consumed, rather than the methods that can be used to identify it.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by jiggy2011 on Friday February 15, 2013 @09:45AM (#5226360)
This seems to make the assumption that there is a right and wrong way to have sex and that there is a definitive list of things that women do and do not enjoy.

Of course it stands to reason that porn marketed to men will put more focus on the parts that men are more likely to enjoy and the marketing will also reflect this.

So a scene showing fairly vanilla sex will be labelled "slut gets destroyed by huge cock" or something.

To be honest I would suspect that women in porn who truly hate the experience wouldn't last too long. It's more likely that they simply find it boring after a while than outright unpleasant. In other words doing anal to them would be like debugging to us.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by saucetenuto on Friday February 15, 2013 @11:23AM (#5226912)
So if you're marketing porn to men, it's better to write "slut gets destroyed by huge cock" than e.g. "man has great sex"? I think you're right, but it's pretty disturbing, hearing it put that way.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by jiggy2011 on Friday February 15, 2013 @11:36AM (#5226974)
I think most people would understand that "destroy" does not literally mean destroy.

Usually men have the dominant role during sex whilst women prefer to be submissive (though obviously not always the case). Using hyperbolic language is a safe and effective way to demonstrate dominance.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by droidist2 on Friday February 15, 2013 @03:41PM (#5228506)
True. People sensationalize to get more views. It's like how people title YouTube videos things like "Hillary Clinton gets smacked down by Obama in debate" when it's just a clip of a routine rebuttal by Obama.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by groby_b on Friday February 15, 2013 @04:46PM (#5228869)
What a load of BS. No, women do not "prefer to be submissive", except in some misguided guys' fantasy lives.

And it really doesn't matter that destroy isn't meant literally - it's still used as a term intent to degrade and humiliate. It's about male power fantasies.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by jiggy2011 on Friday February 15, 2013 @10:15PM (#5230209)
Why do you think books like "50 shades of gray" or so popular?
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by groby_b on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @11:23AM (#5245074)
Hint: Because they are a fantasy.

Women also read romance novels set in Victorian times - are you now going to claim that we'd all like to wear corsets and swoon at the arrival of our heroes?

Also: I don't see guys clamoring to become pizza delivery drivers, either, and yet it's a common porn trope.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by throwaway1 on Friday February 15, 2013 @12:51PM (#5227356)
Because no man wants to think about the man! And porn is marketed to men. There's a reason he's called the "stunt cock." Quite a few men get off on the idea of HER wanting it. SHE wants the huge cock, she is insatiable. The idea is that the woman/women is a sexual beast who wants you so badly ... which is what the man behind his computer/TV wants because most porn watchers are not indulging with another viewer. The man always must orgasm, but no male viewer wants to see him any more than possible. See also, POV porn.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by saucetenuto on Friday February 15, 2013 @01:52PM (#5227729)
So, why not "slut loves his cock"? Why "destroy"?
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by tsotha on Friday February 15, 2013 @03:34PM (#5228450)
There are a lot of videos labeled with some variety of "slut loves cock". The problem is there must be millions of these videos and they all have substantially the same content - two people engaging in sex.

Producers have to have some way of making their product grab your attention, and "two people fucking" isn't going to do it.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by notgrace on Saturday February 16, 2013 @12:43AM (#5230542)
I'm female and I have my toe in that industry. I am not in the skin trade, but I am in a position where I have a bit of exposure to it.

1) Yes, most porn focuses on the male's pleasure, which is a common complaint. That's why James Deen makes money: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/17/porn_that_wo...

2) Yes. Some women are into that. I feel like you are unnecessarily close-minded about the idea that women might like a range of experiences. I also agree with other commenters on their ideas that naming porn conventions do not actually indicate suffering, pain, and degradation.

3) True. Porn is not meant as educational material; be safe.

4) It does create unrealistic expectations, but almost nobody expects porn to be like real life.

Female porn stars do get to choose what kind of sex they have. I hate victim blame just as much as the next woman, but saying that porn stars can choose what to do is not victim blame. Porn stars live in a world where they get paid for what they decide to do. The skin industry does have some people who are not there by choice but necessity...but the vast majority are there because they chose to follow that route. Though I think concern for the performers is admirable, most performers are ok with where they are. It's actually a little bit ridiculous that men get up in arms about women when they choose to go into the industry; it's a mostly free choice. Men act like the performers can't like what they do, which is wrong. http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/its-a-lap-dance-a...

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by tomjen3 on Friday February 15, 2013 @11:06AM (#5226801)
>Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc.

And an entire subgroup which focus on the same with the man -- but most people don't look that far, because they just want to look down on porn.

It is religious bullshit, repackaged as concern for women(TM).

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by sigzero on Friday February 15, 2013 @11:47AM (#5227022)
Religion has nothing to do with it. Porn is degrading.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by tsotha on Friday February 15, 2013 @03:30PM (#5228419)
"Degrading" is one of those words that seems to mean something but when you get down to brass tacks it's so subjective it really doesn't. If the performer is willing to do something for the money the producer is offering and have the act shown to the world clearly she doesn't share your value system.

If her decision offends you then don't watch porn.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by marknutter on Friday February 15, 2013 @08:55AM (#5226130)
The real truth is, there's a wide range of porn catering to a wide array of interests and you're narrowly focusing in on a very small slice of that array.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by Surio on Saturday February 16, 2013 @02:01PM (#5232543)
+1 Actually, IMO, you do raise some very good (and uncomfortable) points. I've read on the papers that research studies actually support the points you make.

Here's the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dine...

There was another article that mentioned that an explosion in access to [western made] pornographic materials in many African countries has distorted the views across the male population (from adolescents to old men). As a consequence the stats on rapes being committed has gone up very significantly (Alas: I cannot seem to find a link)

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by vacri on Friday February 15, 2013 @07:28AM (#5225814)
One might get the idea that the only thing a man need do to make a woman enjoy sex is to pound her fast and hard.

While I'm not about to argue that porn is a particularly accurate depiction of sex, I always find it interesting that these kinds of criticisms of it always seem to ignore the frequent cunnilingus in it. One of the things I like about this article is that it's about data mining rather than selection bias. Not to say that the article isn't biased, but that it's less biased.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by CodeMage on Friday February 15, 2013 @08:18AM (#5225966)
I can't speak for other people, but I can offer you insight into how I think about these things.

It's not that I ignore the frequent cunnilingus in porn, it's that I don't see the need to mention it because I don't look at porn as an equation, as in "Well, he's going from ungentle and obviously painful anal directly to rough fellatio, but that's perfectly okay because of the long cunnilingus at the beginning."

I'm not trying to portray all porn as bad and degrading, nor am I denying that there is good (and sometimes even realistic) sex in it. Nor do I claim that it all should be realistic. What concerns me and motivates me to comment on porn are the following things:

1) the prevalence of casual degradation of women in porn.

2) what people learn to expect based on porn.

3) how many people seem to be either unaware of some (or all) of the above or aware but believe it's normal and acceptable.

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by tsotha on Friday February 15, 2013 @03:37PM (#5228472)
Do you have any reason to believe people are actually looking to porn as some sort of instruction manual? Rates of rape (at least in the US) have fallen dramatically over the last two decades, which isn't something you'd expect if men see porn as an information resource.
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by vacri on Friday February 15, 2013 @06:36PM (#5229453)
People do tend to imitate what they see. Certainly it's not set in stone and there are always counterexamples, but overall, the trend is to mimic observed behaviour - hence the idea of things like 'leading by example'.

That being said, there's a lot of different types of porn. Saying "I watch porn" is like saying "I read fiction". It certainly tells us a bit about you, but isn't particularly definitive - do you read lightweight trash like Dan Brown, do you prefer mysteries, bodice-rippers, fantasies, war novels, or the complexities of writers like Eco? Perhaps a little bit of everything depending on the mood?

Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by Surio on Saturday February 16, 2013 @01:55PM (#5232516)
Re:Deep Inside: A Study of 10,000 Pornstars and Their Careers by tsotha on Saturday February 16, 2013 @03:44PM (#5232944)
And yet the statistics have a steep drop in sexual violence that roughly coincides with the introduction of the internet.