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Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by temphn on Wednesday January 30, 2013 @11:49PM (#5143510)
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-...

  But in the months before, the Obama administration clearly 
  was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in 
  helping arm Libyan militants, concerns that have not 
  previously been reported. The weapons and money from Qatar 
  strengthened militant groups in Libya, allowing them to   
  become a destabilizing force since the fall of the Qaddafi 
  government.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/16/us-iran-election-t...

  U.S. State Department speaks to Twitter over Iran

  The U.S. State Department said on Tuesday it had contacted 
  the social networking service Twitter to urge it to delay a 
  planned upgrade that would have cut daytime service to 
  Iranians who are disputing their election.
http://judiciary.house.gov/news/Hearing%20Statement%20hr2121...

  China Democracy Promotion Act of 2011

  By denying visas to certain Chinese nationals in the 
  government who promote human rights abuses, we might as 
  well assist Chinese patriots who work to end the lack of 
  accountability for government officials who are part of the 
  Chinese Communist Party. This legislation will send a 
  message that abuses by these officials that go unchecked 
  within China will not be ignored by the international 
  community.  
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/world/asia/chinese-communi...

  But they say the party’s agenda, as it stands today, is not 
  visionary enough to set China on the path to stability. 
  What is needed, they say, is a comprehensive strategy to 
  gradually extricate the Communist Party, which has more 
  than 80 million members, from its heavy-handed control of 
  the economy, the courts, the news media, the military, 
  educational institutions, civic life and just the plain 
  day-to-day affairs of citizens. Only then, the critics 
  argue, can the government start to address the array of 
  issues facing China 
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674008793

  By examining the growth in individual rights, the public 
  sphere, democratic processes, and pluralization, the author 
  seeks to answer questions concerning the relevance of 
  liberal democratic ideas for China and the relationship 
  between a democratic political culture and a democratic 
  political system. 
http://csis.org/files/publication/TWQ_13Winter_He.pdf

  China represents an uncomfortable thorn in U.S. efforts to 
  promote democracy around the world. While some projects 
  have been successful, a large gap exists between the 
  increasing U.S. funding in China and its "limited
  impact." [1] Moreover, U.S. democracy promotion in China 
  has contributed to strategic distrust between China and the 
  United States; Beijing perceives it as a strategic move to 
  destabilize the rise of China and sabotage the Communist
  Party’s leadership.
Given countless public statements like this, the PRC thinks with some justification that all these American institutions - Twitter, the State Department, the New York Times, Harvard - would like to see their government changed and replaced with a democracy. Despite their obvious internal differences, said institutions do share the assumption that exporting Western democracy will be good for China. But China sees what it has done for the Middle East and may have its own opinions.

  that doesn't mean sane people should believe extraordinary 
  claims without extraordinary evidence
Move along, nothing to see here? Yet the NYT itself admits: "Diplomatic cables report how American officials frequently assured skeptical [Arab] governments that the training was aimed at reform, not promoting revolutions." Much of this is out in the open, so it's more coordination than conspiracy. As for the phrase "conspiracy theory", the implication of that phrase is that conspiracies don't exist. And to entertain the idea that Americans (let alone Zionists!) could possibly conspire is equated by you to believing in the Illuminati and the Nibiru. Yet in this selfsame article the NYT implies that the Chinese government engaged in a conspiracy against them.

Perhaps then you believe it is only Americans that never conspire. What then to make of "the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants"?

Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by wololo on Thursday January 31, 2013 @12:59AM (#5143733)
Occam's Razor says some office working for the Chinese government is looking for who snitched on Wen Jiabao's problematic enormous wealth.

> Perhaps then you believe it is only Americans that never conspire.

seriously?

Just look at the flailing US response day by day in the Egyptian revolution as they tried to get ahead of how it would turn out for an example of how the Obama administration was just as blindsided by the Arab Spring as everyone else.

For US intervention in the Libyan revolution, after the 1994 Rwandan genocide, Rice said "I swore to myself that if I ever faced such a crisis again, I would come down on the side of dramatic action, going down in flames if that was required."

More generally, a bunch of unconnected dots about supporting democracy or human rights in China, like any other interesting subject, is normal.

> Yet the NYT itself admits: "Diplomatic cables report how American officials frequently assured skeptical [Arab] governments that the training was aimed at reform, not promoting revolutions."

From the same article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?pagewante...): "No one doubts that the Arab uprisings are home grown, rather than resulting from “foreign influence,” as alleged by some Middle Eastern leaders."

Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by berntb on Thursday January 31, 2013 @05:59AM (#5144404)
>>For US intervention in the Libyan revolution, after the 1994 Rwandan genocide, Rice said "I swore to myself that if I ever faced such a crisis again, I would come down on the side of dramatic action, going down in flames if that was required."

A change of subject, but... Why have this been forgotten today?! Syria seems worse than Libya. It reminds me of the civil war in ex-Jugoslavia with the rape camps and atrocities.

(I mostly read discussions about China to see if I can spot the members of the "50 cent army" :-) )

Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by wololo on Thursday January 31, 2013 @12:04PM (#5145914)
Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by mylittlepony on Thursday January 31, 2013 @12:11AM (#5143583)
> As for the phrase "conspiracy theory", the implication of that phrase is that conspiracies don't exist.

Exactly this. Or that all theories are not worth our time, since they are just that, "just a theory" (implying there is no proof?), like creationists (of which, America is filled with) like to say.

Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by wololo on Thursday January 31, 2013 @01:17AM (#5143776)
> Or that all theories are not worth our time, since they are just that, "just a theory" (implying there is no proof?), like creationists (of which, America is filled with) like to say.

congratulations on the beautiful ad hominem

Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by mylittlepony on Thursday January 31, 2013 @06:02AM (#5144411)
I don't see it. I was adding to the argument that you are using the word "theory" with a negative connotation, which makes absolutely no sense. And that mistake is very common in America, since you have religious folks spreading misinformation all over the country, including schools. On the other hand, I can see an ad hominem here:

> the idea of Americans/Zionists/Illuminati/Nibiru pulling the strings behind every major event is no doubt very exciting for conspiracy theorists

Someone is a "conspiracy theorist", so whatever he finds exciting must be wrong.

Re:Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers by wololo on Thursday January 31, 2013 @11:52AM (#5145856)
It's ad hominem because (a) bringing up creationism make the US look bad and (b) has nothing to do with conspiracy theories about the US having orchestrated the Arab Spring and plotting to overthrow the PRC. Are you saying I'm a creationist, or am being secretly influenced by them?

In fact, believing in creationism fundamentally relies on conspiracy theories and makes one more likely to believe in conspiracy theories.

> Someone is a "conspiracy theorist", so whatever he finds exciting must be wrong.

From a Bayesian perspective, I would get behind "much more likely", yes. I'm claiming the conspiracy theories involving those four all assume magical powers in similar ways and are just as unlikely, so I think they're OK to associate with each other, as they inform on each other.