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Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by adrianm on Sunday January 20, 2013 @05:41PM (#5088583)
I really had no idea how horrible the humanitarian crisis in North Korea really was until I began reading about it yesterday after checking out the blog post that was on the front page here. I feel ashamed I have been ignorant for so long.

In summary of what I've learned, it's generally accepted that there are around 200,000 people kept in active concentration camps [1]. There are two types of camps: those for political prisoners (and those related to suspected defectors, because you're guilty by association with the convicted individual) held until they die, and re-education camps for "minor" offenses. Regardless of the prisoner classification, both are subject to a similarly deplorable fate.

Conditions are eerily reminiscent of concentration camps operated by Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

This includes: 1) Constant threat of public execution at the whims of guards. 2) Deplorable conditions including: lack of suitable sleeping areas, lack of general access to toilets except on a twice daily basis. 3) Malnutrition. Amnesty reports 40% of inmates die due to malnutrition. Highly rationed diet consisting of 100 grams of corn (if you're not being punished) and salt soup. Finding and eating rats raw is generally considered a blessing, but at the risk of punishment by guards. 4) Torturing prisoners is commonplace. Without going into the gory details, suffice it to say, it is horrible. 5) Human experimentation performed on prisoners a la Dr. Mengele. 6) Infanticide of babies born in captivity.

I remember when I first learned about the Holocaust in school and wondered how in the hell did the world stand by for so long while these atrocities were being committed? Now I understand.

When you are, by pure randomness, lucky enough to be living in a part of the world where these horrible acts are distant enough to barely register on the press radar, reading about these things do seem unfathomable, almost fake.

Most of what I've heard about North Korea in the past has focused on their bizarre cult of personality and generally bizarre culture. As comical as North Korea is made out to be in much of the internet, there is a serious humanitarian crisis ongoing. Given that the Korean War ended in 1953, the situation has perpetuated for sixty years now.

If the statistic of six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust shocks and disgusts you, I shudder to think about what we shall uncover after the North Korean dictatorship falls (if it ever does at this point if the situation continues) and their dark history finally becomes public knowledge. It really makes me feel nauseous to think that we always have to wait until after the atrocities end to learn from them.

Is there anything we can do? I'm sure there is, I just don't know what. Ugh.

[1] Amnesty International Media Briefing on North Korean Prison Camps http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA24/001/2011/en/26...

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by goodcanadian on Sunday January 20, 2013 @07:03PM (#5088890)
It is very hard to do anything. For decades, both China and the Soviet Union supported North Korea as a buffer to keep American soldiers away from their own borders. Neither country liked the North Koreans very much, but they didn't like each other very much either, so the Koreans could play one off the other to get away with whatever they wanted. Moreover, there was no possibility for the Americans or the South Koreans to do anything without risking war with the Soviets and/or the Chinese.

This situation changed somewhat with the fall of the Soviet Union. I believe the article has a chart of the freight tonnage crossing the border that shows a sharp drop off at this time (I saw the chart somewhere last night). The loss of aid from the Russians exacerbated the North Korean famine in the 1990s. The Chinese still continued to support the Koreans as a buffer state, however. Recently, it has become clear that the Chinese have grown somewhat ambivalent to the whole situation (wikileaks, for example). It is now unlikely that they would defend North Korea in a war, but they do still think of it as their backyard. For the Americans and South Koreans, the prospect of going to war against the North with a possibly nuclear armed army of 2 million soldiers is not very appealing.

I would say that the Chinese influence is growing as the Koreans have not been able to play them off against the Soviets for the last 20 years. More and more (capitalist) Chinese investment seems to be occurring, and the country seems to be opening up ever so slightly, though the Koreans still act pretty randomly.

One final note, I have been watching North Korea for a few years, and I would say there has been a very important sign of opening up. Last night, I watched a video from a tour where the guide at a collective farm talked openly if not completely honestly about the famine. A few years ago, they would not have even admitted that the famine occurred and blamed it on American propaganda. The door has been wedged open a little bit, and I am hopeful that a new generation of leadership that has grown up without the benefit of Soviet support will allow things to open further. Then, we may be able to do something productive about the atrocities that sadly still occur.

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by pygy_ on Sunday January 20, 2013 @07:00PM (#5088868)
Horrific, indeed. They also put child workers in drugs fields because they are less likely to abuse or steal it.

Sorry to pick nit after this awful depiction, but this oversight is too common:

> If the statistic of six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust shocks and disgusts you [...]

Add 5 millions of Romani, homosexuals, disabled people and slavic prisoners of war. Popular history tends to forget them.

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by adrianm on Sunday January 20, 2013 @09:04PM (#5089414)
I agree with you. It's really not even a nitpick, it's the truth that should be emphasized more.

It doesn't look like I'm able to edit my original comment, unfortunately.

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by twentysix on Sunday January 20, 2013 @09:11PM (#5089435)
He mentioned the Yodok camp in his travelogue. If the account given in Wikipedia is true, the conditions there are truly horific.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp#Condi...

It sounds like one of the worst places on earth and we wont know the true extent of the horror until the situation changes there and the country opens up.

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by nandemo on Monday January 21, 2013 @01:13AM (#5090193)
You could join or donate to a NGO that helps North Korean defectors. Some help North Koreans who are living in South Korea, Japan, or elsewhere. Some actively help people escape to those countries after they have crossed the Chinese border.

I know of a couple such organizations in Japan. You could try and find one in your country.

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by Sulfolobus on Sunday January 20, 2013 @07:11PM (#5088917)
This is why I'm getting a bit annoyed with all the "visiting North Korea" stuff. You are directly funding the regime.
Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by nandemo on Monday January 21, 2013 @01:09AM (#5090185)
I understand one might refuse to go there out of principle, but on monetary terms alone I think it doesn't matter. The income from tourism is irrelevant for NK.

Besides trade with (and possibly significant aid from) China, NK gets hard currency from selling arms to other countries, and illegal activities such as counterfeiting, smuggling and drug traffic.

http://theconversation.edu.au/north-koreas-basketcase-econom...

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by nikster on Monday January 21, 2013 @08:39PM (#5094994)
Its still always better to go there; it was like this in Burma (before they opened up); and it is like this in North Korea. The more contact there is with the outside world, the quicker things will change.

A boycott only helps the people in power.

I have a feeling things will soon change in N Korea. Its not any specific information I have read, its just a collective pressure that weakens those regimes and those who support them.

Take Burma as an example - the leadership got sick of the failed state, the abysmal economy, the boycott against regime sons and daughters - an absolutely brillant plan whereby countries simply dont accept sons, daughters, and other family members of dictatorships; this hits where it hurts, on a personal level, when you might the the king in your country with $Bns stolen from the people in a bank account but your daughter cant go to school in Australia or fly to Paris. I wish more countries would participate.

Back to Burma, I followed that situation for years and it seemed completely hopeless. But then the Burmese leadership faced a situation: Either change and open to the west or get bought out by China. They didnt want China to come in and own the country so they opened up, and now all sorts of good things happen.

Russia is already uninterested in N Korea - maybe there is some strategic benefit but they wont go so far as to send money. And China, it seems like, wont need them much either anymore, seeing as they are now the worlds factory and they benefit from commerce much more than they ever could from confrontation. China might fall away as an ally and then N Korea is going to reform.

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by ars on Sunday January 20, 2013 @09:12PM (#5089438)
You are, but ignoring things and people never visiting would be worse.
Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by wahnfrieden on Sunday January 20, 2013 @11:33PM (#5089882)
The people visiting only see staged theatrics, it doesn't do a whole lot of good.
Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by ars on Monday January 21, 2013 @12:04AM (#5089953)
I don't know - I certainly found out a lot about North Korea from those visits. I assume you did too.
Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by OGinparadise on Monday January 21, 2013 @12:51AM (#5090112)
You are, but ignoring things and people never visiting would be worse.

Worse for the regime, yes. They need foreign currency and need to spalsh famous faces on TV "XX came to our wonderful country and was surprised at...". If you think that Erik Schmidt or his daughter know jack about NK and how life is because of their visit, I have a bridge...

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by nodata on Monday January 21, 2013 @03:50AM (#5090599)
Is there anything we can do? I'm sure there is, I just don't know what. Ugh.

Anyone?

Re:The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008) by OGinparadise on Monday January 21, 2013 @12:49AM (#5090105)
Is there anything we can do? I'm sure there is, I just don't know what. Ugh.

Not really, they are armed to the teeth. The West tried once as you mentioned and if we try again, Seoul will probably be leveled in minutes and untold millions might die in both sides. The West had much smaller countries to liberate and did jack.

When you are, by pure randomness, lucky enough to be living in a part of the world where these horrible acts are distant enough to barely register on the press radar, reading about these things do seem unfathomable, almost fake.

They are hundreds of millions that lived through them in Eastern Europe so it's not new. Maybe NK is a bit harsher but the same principle applies.