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Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by calmbonsai on Thursday November 12, 2026 @01:27PM (#50471869)
Batteries will not have the requisite energy density for anything remotely long-journey--notably Panamax+ container ships which, sadly, are also the biggest carbon & sulfur (yes low-sulfer regs/fuel exists, but not everywhere) polluters.

These large ships will likely be de-carbonized either with ammonia turbines or fuel cells. Mann has already been running a PoC ammonia turbine ship for about 4 years--the last 2 undergoing proper blue-water "sea-trials" journeys.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by nradov on Thursday November 12, 2026 @01:48PM (#50472199)
If ammonia fuel happens at all for merchant vessels then for efficiency reasons it will be run through reciprocating engines, not turbines.

https://www.wartsila.com/marine/products/engines-and-generat...

But I have my doubts. There's still no economically viable way to produce "green" ammonia at scale. It's hazardous to handle and less energy dense than liquid hydrocarbons.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by mrguyorama on Thursday November 12, 2026 @02:48PM (#50473149)
Which is why we won't be burning ammonia and shouldn't even try.

We already have an entire, scaled up industry of producing artificial fuel in a non-petrochemical route: It's where the ethanol in your gas tank comes from.

Farming will be easier to electrify than shipping, or it might not even need to be, and then we will have ample supply (at least here in the US) of energy dense fuels produced through non-petrochemical needs

Growing corn to turn into ethanol to burn isn't like, a carbon negative process right now, but it's also viable today to provide energy dense fuels in a sustainable way to feed our needs like long term storage, compactness, emergencies, and things like planes which won't work with batteries very well.

We already supply enough artificial hydrocarbon fuel through that process to make up 10% of all gasoline burned. As american cars electrify, the corn farmers are going to lose their shit about this subsidy being reduced, so we should just turn it around and have them commit to a larger artificial fuel industry. Our corn growing is already basically a fully socialized industry, let's just lean into it more. Put less corn syrup into random foods like burger buns and put more of it into vats to get energy dense fuel.

It's (technically, barely) an energy positive process, is extremely scalable, is fairly old "tech" such that it won't be owned by one company or country, and the hardest part will be replacing the petrochemical fertilizer.

Oh, ethanol is a more energy dense fuel too.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by treyd on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:04PM (#50473386)
The real solution though is nuclear powered shipping. There's dozens of nuclear powered ships already and they've been running safely for decades. It's just regulatory roadblocks, but if governments wanted to do it they could.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by simonebrunozzi on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:11PM (#50473459)
Military ships are "safe", because they can generally defend themselves. Commercial container ships would be the target of hijacking, to steal the reactor / fuel, or use them as 9/11 ship equivalents.

Regulation is not always bad.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by nradov on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:45PM (#50474009)
Correct. And military nuclear vessels are also operationally safe because superpower navies are willing to spend a fortune on training and paying qualified nuclear engineers and technicians. Despite those large budgets they still struggle to maintain minimum crewing levels. Merchant lines can't afford the personnel expense.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by rbanffy on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:54PM (#50474127)
For merchant ships we’d need completely sealed idiot-proof reactors. Those haven’t been invented just yet.

Also, we’d need to make them impossible to open and impossible to remove without cutting the ship in half.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by nradov on Thursday November 12, 2026 @06:17PM (#50475807)
So in other words, we'd need magic.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by 0cf8612b2e1e on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:34PM (#50475347)
It has only been two years since the Baltimore bridge was destroyed by that container ship. Had known faulty maintenance, but they kept operating. Now the rest of us have to pay $5 billion to replace the bridge, plus whatever economic damage was done to surrounding industries.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by rbanffy on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:52PM (#50474091)
We could find a way to make the reactor so integral to the ship and the fuel so integral to the reactor it’d be almost impossible to remove either. We can compound that with fuel cycles with materials less useful for making bombs.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by lazide on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:11PM (#50477193)
Ships run aground and get abandoned all the time. You’d need a lot more than that.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by rdtsc on Friday November 13, 2026 @04:44AM (#50480826)
Not a chance. Pirates hijacking a nuclear powered container ship is not something anyone wants to deal with.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by Animats on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:42PM (#50473966)
> We already have an entire, scaled up industry of producing artificial fuel in a non-petrochemical route: It's where the ethanol in your gas tank comes from.

Ethanol as a fuel is mostly a subsidy for US farmers. The net energy gain is low.[1] Ethanol plants need a lot of heat energy to process corn into ethanol. They don't burn their own ethanol for heat; they use natural gas or even coal.[2] If they made their own process heat, which they could, they'd use about half their own output. They wouldn't get the subsidy on that. So they burn other fuels to make ethanol.

That doesn't include the costs of farming the corn.

[1] https://energy.sustainability-directory.com/learn/how-does-t...

[2] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Energy-use-in-each-of-th...

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by mrguyorama on Friday November 13, 2026 @12:01PM (#50486351)
And?

The point is not an energy positive process. The point is a semi sustainable industry for making high density (liquid) fuels for the few systems that will need that energy density to continue functioning in an electrified future. The goal isn't "Don't burn anything ever". The goal is "Stop adding carbon to the atmosphere"

People talk about that concept like it's the future, but humans have been bulk producing a high energy liquid fuel with good stability and toxicity properties for millenia! The US produces enough ethanol to totally replace our entire commercial aviation usage right now.

Ethanol costs about $2 a gallon at that current industrial production level.

Actually that gives me pause. What stops anyone using it as a primary fuel right now if it's so cheap? I imagine the average airplane jet turbine has done a lot of testing on ethanol of course, and you always have to worry about your employees trying to drink your fuel then.

But my point is; We subsidize corn growth so that the USA will never, ever, ever experience a famine. That's the point. The corn will be grown regardless, and if there isn't a minor societal collapse that year, we should turn more of it into ethanol instead of corn syrup. Electrify agriculture and industrial process heat and you can also use that setup to essentially "Load shift" the high solar output in the summer into the winter.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by hermitShell on Thursday November 12, 2026 @01:56PM (#50472319)
I wonder why ammonia became the solution that went ahead to prototype and now appears the top candidate for near future low carbon alternative?

You still have to deal with a lot of specialized infrastructure and engine design.

I would have thought something like processing coal or synthesizing ethanol to a more suitable drop in replacement fuel would be easier. Maybe less scalable or outright requires more energy input.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by scythe on Thursday November 12, 2026 @02:23PM (#50472768)
Any carbon-based fuel ultimately depends on a lot of capture infrastructure to be carbon-neutral. In the short term, it's hard to see a path to viability. Ammonia is easy to synthesize, ingredients are literally water and air, liquefies at achievable pressure, and can be directly consumed in a fuel cell or combustion engine. It's corrosive, but only to certain materials (late transition metals and aluminum), and toxic, but only in high concentrations (the body naturally contains a few ppm of ammonia at all times). It's biodegradable, so you don't worry as much about spills. It's flammable, but not extremely so like hydrogen.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by WJW on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:24PM (#50473656)
> You still have to deal with a lot of specialized infrastructure and engine design.

Is that really such a downside? Ports are full of specialized infrastructure anyway, and the costs of engine design can be amortized over many engines to be quite minimal overall. Once you've done the design work an ammonia engine isn't more expensive than a hydrogen or diesel engine. And the upsides of ammonia are substantial: fairly easy to handle, quite energy dense and most importantly it is already produced worldwide in huge amounts.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by rbanffy on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:58PM (#50474187)
> I wonder why ammonia became the solution that went ahead to prototype and now appears the top candidate for near future low carbon alternative?

You should probably check who would control a larger part of the ammonia supply. I can see few other reasons for putting large quantities of something so unforgiving as ammonia on ships.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by hommelix on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:51PM (#50475544)
> I wonder why ammonia became the solution that went ahead to prototype and now appears the top candidate for near future low carbon alternative?

NH3 has no carbon in it. It has the advantage of not producing CO2. This is a good advantage for public communication.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by cyberax on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:01PM (#50473347)
Ammonia is not going to happen. Sorry. There's no way we're going to allow floating chemical weapons maintained by shipping companies that not just cut corners but angle-grind them.

Methane works perfectly well for shipping. It's cheap, abundant, and we already have all the infrastructure for it.

And to fully decarbonize it, we'll just shift to biogas or power-to-gas.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by hommelix on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:55PM (#50475586)
> Methane works perfectly well for shipping. It's cheap, abundant, and we already have all the infrastructure for it. > > And to fully decarbonize it, we'll just shift to biogas or power-to-gas.

There is nowhere close to enough biogas for ocean going vessel. Methane has got into the focus due to methane slip. And fossil methane only allow a limited CO2 reduction vs Marine Diesel oil. It won't be enough to reach 2030 IMO target on CO2 reduction.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by cyberax on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:14PM (#50476373)
> There is nowhere close to enough biogas for ocean going vessel.

The total amount of biogas production is around 2.5 exajoules (2.5*10^18) per year. The amount of diesel used for intercontinental shipping is 213 million tons, or 10^19J (given the 45MJ/kg energy density).

So we need about 4x the current biogas production. That's entirely doable, especially with the power-to-gas transition.

Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by rbanffy on Friday November 13, 2026 @04:23AM (#50480612)
I wonder if there are any nerve agents that can also function as fuels we could use.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by bobson381 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:16PM (#50473537)
turning off sulfur exhaust caused fewer clouds, helping to lower earth's albedo and accelerate global heating. no wins without losses either way
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by rbanffy on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:59PM (#50474194)
Just add sulphur to ammonia.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by rbanffy on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:56PM (#50474154)
If we are thinking about ammonia as a fuel, why not go with hydrazine? It’s not as immediately lethal as ammonia and is much easier to contain and manipulate.
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by philipkglass on Thursday November 12, 2026 @06:56PM (#50476184)
Hydrazine may not be as immediately lethal by inhalation but it's considered a probable human carcinogen by the EPA. It has more explosion/fire risk. It's also more expensive to synthesize starting from clean primary energy (nuclear or renewables).
Re:Electric Ship Batteries Promise Compact, Cooler Power by lazide on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:12PM (#50477201)
Hydrazine is really toxic, even compared to ammonia, and basically rocket fuel. Nah dog.