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Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by dinedal on Wednesday November 14, 2012 @07:29PM (#4786402)
The problem is that the cars Uber has are already insured as limos. Just by the parent company that they are getting them from, not by Uber itself.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by eli on Wednesday November 14, 2012 @07:35PM (#4786423)
If the drivers already have the required paperwork and insurance then why doesn't Uber just register as a taxi provider and submit it as CPUC requested? Is that really so onerous (honest question)?
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by brc on Wednesday November 14, 2012 @09:32PM (#4786776)
I'm guessing that taxis are a protected industry, as a result from lobbying, and that you can't just register as a taxi provider. I'm guessing that, like most cities, they have found taxi licensing to be a nice little earner for the city, and intentionally limit supply in order to keep the prices high.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by viscanti on Wednesday November 14, 2012 @11:30PM (#4787098)
What does the licensing accomplish? Are drivers double drug tested? Are they double insured? They're using all licensed drivers, which means any arguments of "unfairness" are baseless. They aren't benefiting from lower labor costs because they're using unregulated drivers who might be able to compete at lower costs.

I don't think it's a degree of how onerous the requirement is. It's more a matter of what does it accomplish? There's not a precedent for double covering in the industry, and Uber certainly isn't gaining a competitive advantage because of it. It seems strange that they're lumped in with the other two services who clearly use unlicensed drivers.

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by sk5t on Thursday November 15, 2012 @02:25AM (#4787589)
I made some remarks elsewhere in this thread about the term "unfair," and AFAIK it usually refers to anyone doing work outside the reach of the protestor's collective bargaining agreement.

"We have rigged the market to our satisfaction, and it would be unfair of you to alter that comfortable dynamic."

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by eli on Thursday November 15, 2012 @01:26PM (#4789946)
The licensing proves to the agency that the drivers are drug tested and insured instead of simply taking Uber's word for it. I think it is unreasonable to expect that regulatory paperwork doesn't apply to you just because you're probably in compliance anyway.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by viscanti on Friday November 16, 2012 @11:52AM (#4794594)
This doesn't seem to be an issue of regulatory paperwork though. What does double licensing accomplish and what does it actually mean? I'm all for fines if they're found using unlicensed drivers. I guess I don't know that it's necessary to double drug test the drivers though. I don't think the issue here is filling out a permit, I think it's a matter of "what does that mean". If asked, they should probably be required to show that all their drivers are properly licensed. If their drivers are all properly licensed, I don't see what requiring Uber to be licensed accomplishes.

It's not a question of "probably in compliance". If Uber is using unlicensed drivers (which I haven't heard any evidence of), they should be fined. If they are using 100% properly licensed drivers, I think this is a non-story.

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by rhizome on Wednesday November 14, 2012 @09:25PM (#4786756)
Because cities limit the number of taxi drivers through the use of medallions or similar.

https://www.google.com/search?q=taxi+medallion

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by eli on Wednesday November 14, 2012 @10:06PM (#4786868)
State of california doesn't appear to require medallions, so I don't think that applies in this specific case.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by squeed on Thursday November 15, 2012 @12:32AM (#4787269)
San Francisco is currently limited to 1494 taxi medallions. That means, legally, there can be a maximum of 1494 cars making street hails at any given moment.

Car services are licensed by the state instead of the city, and are not subject to medallion restrictions. However, they cannot legally make street hails.

Source: http://www.sfmta.com/cms/xind/medallionsissued.htm

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by whyenot on Thursday November 15, 2012 @02:59AM (#4787678)
If the people of SF want more medallions, they can always create a proposition and vote at the ballot box. Proposition A in 2007 is the reason the MTA regulates taxis in the first place, and previous propositions ("Transit First") have shaped the number of medallions that are issued.

If Uber is operating as a taxi, they should have to get medallions just like every other taxi company. If they, or anyone else doesn't like the taxi system in SF, it's possible to change it, assuming you can convince enough voters... It's not all that hard to get a proposition on the ballot in SF. There were 7 propositions in our last election, and that's on the low end for SF.

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by Zak on Thursday November 15, 2012 @08:28AM (#4788396)
Why should there be medallions at all? How do they benefit society as a whole or serve any legitimate government function, as opposed to shall-issue licencing for anyone who meets the safety/training/testing/insurance requirements?
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by tptacek on Thursday November 15, 2012 @01:09PM (#4789866)
Medallions increase the cost to taxi operators of violations by threatening a difficult-to-recover license. Talk to Uber drivers, like friends of mine have, and you quickly learn that many Uber drivers like the service principally because no other licensed operator would allow them to drive; it's too risky for a cab or black car operator to hire on a driver with a suspension.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by Zak on Thursday November 15, 2012 @02:27PM (#4790290)
I can imagine a simple solution to this problem that doesn't require a complex regulatory framework or artificial restrictions on supply: require a large amount of insurance coverage. The insurance companies would do the rest.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by tptacek on Thursday November 15, 2012 @02:31PM (#4790307)
So, instead of a medallion system, we'd have a corporatocracy run by major insurers and the large companies that could afford long-term relationships with them, and instead of voting to decide how we'd regulate cabs, we'd be stuck with whatever rules the insurers came up with. This does not seem like a public policy improvement.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by Zak on Thursday November 15, 2012 @03:25PM (#4790565)
I believe a significant insurance requirement already exists for taxis. What I'm proposing is that, if it isn't already, it be worded such that it applies to anyone who regularly drives people for money.

Fundamentally, what I want is for simple rules to exist that don't interfere with new business models and serve to align the interests of businesses with society as a whole. To mitigate the impact of corporate deals, each driver could be required to apply for insurance individually with the insurer of their choice and that the employer pay it (or not hire the driver if it's too much). This would allow competition to do its job.

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by tptacek on Thursday November 15, 2012 @04:26PM (#4790833)
SF taxi insurance requirements are low: $1MM, on the order of what a typical sr. software engineer should already be buying for their own insurance.

My point is, by delegating regulation of cabs to the insurance markets, you don't make the market any more transparent or efficient; instead, you cede it to private businesses who can make arbitrary decisions with no oversight at all.

Crappy oversight is better than no oversight.

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by Zak on Thursday November 15, 2012 @04:55PM (#4790991)
Crappy oversight is better than no oversight.

I don't care about oversight. I care that the taxi I get in to doesn't crash.

I don't have a lot of faith that regulators will do a good job reducing the probability of that outcome. I think they're likely to be corrupt, incompetent, apathetic or some combination of the three.

I do have a lot of faith that insurance companies will do a good job maximizing their own profits. Those that fail to do so will cease to exist. If we can tie insurance company profits to my taxi not crashing, I think they'll do a near-optimal job of reducing the probability of that outcome.

I agree that $1M seems low for a taxi. That doesn't even cover one wrongful death.

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by tptacek on Thursday November 15, 2012 @06:05PM (#4791328)
I understand, but oversight is the thing that allows you to say, for instance, that a cab driver can't drive for more than 30 hours straight without losing their license.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by rprasad on Thursday November 15, 2012 @12:57PM (#4789811)
Why should there be medallions at all?

It would seem that the good people of San Francisco voted to require medallions and to impose regulation on taxi services.

Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by smsm42 on Thursday November 15, 2012 @02:24PM (#4790278)
Most of the good people of San Francisco have no idea and couldn't care less until they need a taxi. Then they get ripped off, but then they forget about it in the next half an hour.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by Zak on Thursday November 15, 2012 @01:15PM (#4789899)
I couldn't find the origin of the permitting system in a couple minutes of googling, but I did find that there was a medallion system at least as early as 1950. It therefore seems unlikely that many of the people who currently live in San Francisco voted to impose one. It does not appear that there has been any serious effort to eliminate the system.
Re:Lyft, SideCar, and Uber all slapped with $20K fines from ... by dinedal on Wednesday November 14, 2012 @07:39PM (#4786438)
I believe that's a question for Uber, I'm just paraphrasing from the article which states as I've said.

Speculating though, perhaps there are limitations and red tape issues that would prevent them from doing so. Most likely, they don't want / need to operate the fleet of cars, just the technology that connects them to the customers.