News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by roughly on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @12:14PM (#47850869)
Graphene is not a consumer brand and they do not intend to be a consumer brand. They do one thing: make as secure a phone OS as they can. That’s it. If you’re expecting them to do anything in a friendly way, it ain’t gonna happen, that’s not who they are or what they do. That will absolutely limit their scope and reach, but it also allows them to focus on the one thing they’re trying to do without making compromises.

For contrast, Signal is a very secure messenger which also wants to be user friendly so as to get the largest user base they can, which leads to all kinds of compromises - everything that’s come out that looks like a vulnerability in Signal originates in some feature or capability added to make the product more user friendly. Graphene will not make those trades.

Neither approach is de facto right - they spring from fundamentally different philosophies on how to maximize user safety, and both have been extremely successful in their missions, but you’ve gotta recognize what you’re looking at when you look at Graphene.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by fwipsy on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @12:28PM (#47851039)
If they were doing that one thing, they would not have posted this. It's fine not to market to consumers, but this raises additional concerns about the founder's judgement. Someone else claimed that they deleted update signing keys for copperhead devices. That's seriously concerning if true; possibly bad enough to switch away from grapheneOS.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by microtonal on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:07PM (#47853080)
He deleted the signing keys because it looked like the other owner of Copperhead OS wanted to make the signing keys available to government agencies and/or criminal organizations. He deleted the signing keys to protect their users against malicious updates, which is the right thing to do and should increase trust in him and the project.

It's worth actually reading the linked post. Relevant segment:

In 2018, matters between Micay and Donaldson came to a head over Donaldson’s desire to pursue business deals with criminal organizations, and his attempts to compromise the security of CopperheadOS, including by proposing license enforcement and remote updating systems that would allow third-parties to have access to users’ phones. As part of this process, Donaldson began to demand that Micay provide Donaldson with the “signing keys” - i.e. the credentials required to verify the authenticity of releases of CopperheadOS. Donaldson advised that, in order to secure certain new business, potential customers required access to the Keys.

The keys had been in continuous use by Micay, in his personal capacity, since before the incorporation of Copperhead. However, more importantly, any party with the keys could mark malicious software as “authentic”, and thereby infiltrate devices using CopperheadOS.

Micay was unwilling to participate in that kind of security breach. Since Donaldson had control over certain infrastructure for the open source project, he would be able to incorporate (or hire others to incorporate) the privacy-damaging features described above for all future releases of CopperheadOS. Micay therefore deleted the keys permanently and severed ties with Copperhead and Donaldson.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by fwipsy on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @04:01PM (#47853785)
Ah, thanks for setting me straight. That's reassuring. I think I would still have more respect and trust for GrapheneOS if they either didn't respond, or struck a more neutral tone; but that's more subjective.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by joemazerino on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @08:04PM (#47856648)
Is it that Donaldson wanted to pursue deals with criminals or he wanted to backdoor an OS for a defense contractor or that he was a government spy? From the article it seems like none. Claims need receipts or they are blind assertions.

Me? I was a CopperheadOS user from the 2021 rebuild era before GrapheneOS existed in its state. All I've seen from GrapheneOS and Micay are claims without evidence and over-moderation of points they don't agree with.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:43PM (#47853562)
Lol, no. Micay has never concealed this information, it has been publicly accessible on the GrapheneOS website for years. Deleting signing keys under threat of a hostile takeover is the mature thing to do. Would you rather them not have done that and compromise their users? Obviously not.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by ryandrake on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @12:39PM (#47851179)
> They do one thing: make as secure a phone OS as they can. That’s it. If you’re expecting them to do anything in a friendly way, it ain’t gonna happen, that’s not who they are or what they do.

These things are not mutually exclusive:

You can make a great technical product while being friendly. You can make a great technical product while not being friendly.

You can make a compromised or flawed technical product while being friendly. You can make a compromised or flawed technical product while being unfriendly.

This comes up pretty often in other HN threads, unrelated to Graphene. There's this weird personality type who insists that they aren't legally obligated to be friendly or nice or pleasant, therefore it's fine for them to be unfriendly or jerks or unpleasant.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:40PM (#47853522)
GrapheneOS needs to defend themselves. If there were less attacks, there would be more friendly interactions. They dont currently have much a choice in sounding neutral and objective, due to the attacks.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by abnercoimbre on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @01:20PM (#47851722)
As a community organizer for systems programmers: welcome to my world! I've finally made some headway after a decade, helped by the mass layoff apocalypse. (Turns out social skills help you stay solvent.)
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by 1attice on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @01:13PM (#47851611)
Actually, you can't make a great product if you've alienated your allies, because all successes are intrinsically social, from the iPhone to Python to even the processor itself.

Going it alone is that nineties libertarian romanticism, a persistent self-destructive tendency that in present market conditions is unsustainable

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:40PM (#47853528)
GrapheneOS has not alienated allies. Attackers are not allies.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by DANmode on Wednesday April 22, 2026 @05:47AM (#47861240)
What allies?

Their allies seem securely in place.

Their popularity and project support have never been stronger…

and they’re partnering with a (popular!) hardware manufacturer.

https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at...

Respectfully, what are you talking about?

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by antonvs on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @12:39PM (#47851180)
I’d prefer that the people behind an OS I’m using on important devices be stable, for hopefully obvious reasons.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:43PM (#47853570)
The people behind GrapheneOS are not mentally ill or unstable.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by ipaddr on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @01:09PM (#47851563)
Stable people don't do crazy things like make a new OS in their spare time.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by fsflover on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @02:20PM (#47852443)
Stable people can do even more crazy and secure things like, e.g., Qubes OS.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by other8026 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @04:33PM (#47854182)
All the stuff about members of our team not being stable is ridiculous and only works in favor of people or organizations that don't like us or want to damage GrapheneOS.

GrapheneOS has multiple people helping out. Many developers as well as people who help out with non-development work. It's a big claim to say that the whole team is unstable.

I'd suggest reading the article again. Considering the situation, the party about deleting the keys should be a good sign for anyone reading it. It shows that the project's leadership cares about doing things the right way. Members of the team are similarly dedicated to helping build and support an OS that improves people's privacy and device security, not to scam users by making a flashy product and rake in cash. Or, in Donaldson's case, work with shady companies and even possibly criminals.

Privacy and security projects like GrapheneOS are important considering the political landscape these days. People really need to stop repeating inaccurate claims about us, like that we're criminals, unstable, crazy, etc.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by antonvs on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @10:43PM (#47858192)
> It's a big claim to say that the whole team is unstable.

I didn’t claim the whole team was unstable.

> only works in favor of people or organizations that don't like us or want to damage GrapheneOS.

Then I’d suggest stop shooting yourselves in the foot with personal rants published as public communications. If you genuinely feel you’re doing important work, then why wouldn’t you take your public communications seriously and behave maturely, as an organization?

As another comment in this thread put it:

> It's not about friendliness, it's about trust.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by orblivion on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:14PM (#47853172)
It's not just about being friendly. If they have a bubble around them of employees, true believers, and people just afraid of speaking out that chills free expression of criticism, the truth has trouble getting out, which hurts trust.

Still a user though.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:41PM (#47853538)
GrapheneOS is open to all criticism. The issue is what is called criticism is often actually an attack that is trying to be downplayed or disguised.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by orblivion on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:52PM (#47853683)
Maybe true, but but the flip side is that sometimes what is called an attack is actually criticism. That's how it appears to a lot of us from the outside.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @04:12PM (#47853930)
GrapheneOS wants to post more positive things, rather than just defense. But they have very little choice in the matter. If the inhumane levels of attacks werent happening, they would have more time to not speak neutrally and objectively. But ignoring the issue can, has, and will make it worse. They want all the nonsense to stop. The suggestions to just ignore it or to put on a corporate slop PR smile, even if genuine, arent helpful.
Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by orblivion on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @04:31PM (#47854153)
I'm thinking about this a bit more.

It may be the case that Daniel and the project are so under siege that they need to take a hostile attitude toward some of the people they interact with as a matter of self preservation. They may have no other option. But taking this posture while also being fair to all of the people around them (i.e. some people who aren't actually attacking them) may be difficult or even impossible. I can see this behavior in myself sometimes. I just don't have the energy to be fair. "F U".

I wouldn't want to see friendly corporate slop either. I appreciate how down to nuts and bolts the communiques are on Mastodon and how deadly serious they take everything. That part of the communication style makes me trust them more.

I think a good step in the right direction might be acknowledging that being defensive necessarily leads to erring on the side of assuming bad faith rather than good, which leads to some mis-judgements. So far you said that GrapheneOS is open to all criticisms, which (though I haven't followed the space very recently so my memory on specifics is hazy) just does not seem to match my interpretation. I think that if we were having this conversation on Twitter or Mastodon, Daniel would have blocked me by now (if he hadn't already blocked me years ago).

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @06:33PM (#47855517)
People can accidentally be spreading attacks with loaded/presumptuous statements even when their intentions are pure. Unfortunately, pure intentions can still cause harm that needs to be countered.

Take your reply as an example, the GrapheneOS accounts are managed by multiple people, so the fixation on one specific project member may not even be accurate to the discussion. Having ones character attacked is immensely harmful on its own, but being attacked for something one may not even be doing is also immensely harmful.

The unfortunate reality is that people tend to believe the first thing they read, and without something countering it, will roll with it, intentionally or otherwise. So countering misinfo efficiently and quickly is vital.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by ekjhgkejhgk on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:30PM (#47853403)
It's not about friendliness, it's about trust. Everybody else on this thread understood this.

There's many examples of people being unfriendly and still coming across as someone of character, Linus Torvalds comes to mind.

Re:Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker by HybridStatAnim8 on Tuesday April 21, 2026 @03:37PM (#47853497)
Well thats not true. There is little time to be friendly when they have to defend themselves so much. That doesnt mean they dont want to be.