Humanity has possessed nuclear weapons for 80 years and has used them exactly twice in anger, at the very beginning of that span. We can in fact just NOT do things! Not every world-beating technology takes off, for one reason or another. Supersonic airliners. Eugenics. Betamax.
The best time to air concerns was yesterday. The next best time is today. I think we technologists wildly overestimate public understand and underestimate public distrust of our work and of “AI” specifically. We’ve got CEOs stating that LLMs are a bigger deal than nuclear weapons or fire(!) and yet getting upset that the government wants control of their use. We’ve got giddy thinkpieces from people (real example from LinkedIn!) who believe we’ll hit 100% white collar unemployment in 5 years and wrap up by saying they’re “5% nervous and 95% excited”. If that’s what they really think, and how they really feel, it’s psychopathic! Those numbers get you a social scene that’ll make the French Revolution look like a tea party. (“And honestly? I’m here for it.”)
So no, while I _think_ you’re correct, I don’t accept the inevitability of it all. There are possibilities I don’t want to see closed off (maybe data finally really is the new oil, and that’s the basis for a planetary sovereign wealth fund. Maybe every man, woman, and child who ever wrote a book or a program or an internet comment deserves a royalty check in the mail each month!) just yet.
100% this. I don't know why we think that pouring trillions of dollars into something we barely understand to create an economic revolution that is almost certainly awful is at all "inevitable". We just need leaders that aren't complete idiots. I'm generally cynical, but I do see that normies (ie not in tech) are waking up a bit. I don't think the technology is inherently a bad thing, but the people that think that we should just do this as fast as possible to win "the race" should be shot into space as far as I'm concerned. To start with, we need a working SEC that can actually punish the grifting CEO's that are using fear to manipulate markets.
I agree with you on that. Not just on AI but a lot of things that suck about this world, and in particular the United States. But capital is too powerful. And these tools are legitimately transformative for business. And business pays our bills and, more importantly, provides the healthcare insurance for our families. The wheel is a real fucking drag isn't it?
I don't see anything short of a larger revolution against capital stopping or even stemming this. For that to really happen we would need a lot more people and interests than just those of software practitioners. Which may come yet when trucking jobs collapse and customer service jobs disappear. I don't know. I do know that I'm taking part in something that will potentially (likely?) seed the end of my career as I know it but it's just one of many contradictions that I live with. In the meantime the tools are impressive and I'm just figuring out how to live with them and do good work with them and as you can probably tell, I'm pretty convinced that's the best we can make of the situation right now.
The reason that I suggest this is that not only does running locally democratize AI (while AI democratizes software), it solves a lot of the discomfort surrounding the new reliance, dependence, data, and trust given to LLM providers. Basically it removes a lot of the "ick" surrounding LLMs, while also hedging any bets that the investment schemes of LLM providers are unsustainable. You may also hedge bets surrounding "owning" the maintenance of the machines that replace you.
I don't know, it's a small thing that makes me feel a little better during this tumultuous time.
Of course, there’s nothing wiser than tying the entirety of your career to a $20/month subscription (that will jump 10x in price as soon as the market is captured).
Is writing solved because LLMs can make something decently readable? Why say anything at all when LLMs can glob your ideas into a glitzy article in a couple of seconds?
I swear, some people in this field see no value in their programming work — like they’ve been dying to be product managers their entire lives. It is honestly baffling to me. All I see is a future full of horrifying security holes, heisenbugs, and performance regressions that absolutely no one understands. The Idiocracy of software. Fuck!
All I'm saying is you're gonna have to figure out how to do this with an agent. It's not that I don't see value in the craft; it's just that value is less important. As far as the new paradigms, the new frameworks, new studies in computer science -- they still exist, it's just that they are going to focus on how to mitigate heisenbugs, performance regressions and security holes in agent written code. Who knows.. in five years most of the code written may not even be readable. I'm not saying it's going to be like that, but it's entirely possible.
In the meantime, there's nothing stopping you from using the agent to write the code that is every bit as high quality as if you sat down and typed it in yourself. And right now there is a category of engineers that exclusively use agents to create quality software and they are more efficient at it than anybody that just does it themselves. And that category is growing and growing every day.
I may be out a job in five years because all of this. But I am seeing where this is going and it's clear and so I'm going to have to change with it.
You can only speak for yourself.
Agentic programming isn’t engineering: it’s a weird form of management where your workers don’t grow or learn and nobody really understands the system you’re building. That sounds like a hellish, pointless career and it’s not what I got into the field to do. So no thanks: I’ll just keep doing the kind of monkey engineering I find invaluable. Especially while most available models are owned and trained by authoritarian, billionaire, misanthropic cultists.
Fortunately, I am not beholden to some AI-pilled corporation for salary.
I'm really not, though, any more than I "had to" learn JavaScript 20 years ago or blockchains 5 years ago (neither of which I did). Hell, I still use Perl day-to-day.
If most folks don't learn AI (or its shortcomings and practicalities of it), then they will not be as competitive in the job market. Corpos don't care about the flaws.
It's both an obvious consequence of how they operate, and an easily observable reality, that even the best models utterly fail at any task that is even slightly outside of the space spanned by their training set. In this future, software in 2022 was as good and as capable as it was ever going to get. In which case -- fuck, I had higher hopes for what computers and software would be able to achieve when I started in this business 20 years ago, than this sorry state of affairs. We were finally getting some traction on the idea that we urgently need to work on security, reliability, stability, etc., and suddenly we're all supposed to be excited about heading full speed the other way.
And others see too much value in their work.
I test to see the way people think now. People like you would pass my interview.
I see a lot of posts about this, and I see a lot studies, also on HN, that show that this isn't the case.
Now of the course the "this isn't the case" stuff is statistically, thus there can be individual developers whom are faster, but there can also be that an individual developer sometimes is faster and sometimes not but the times that they are faster are just so clearly faster that it sort of hides the times that they're not. Statistics of performance over a number of developers can flatten things out. But I don't know that is the case.
So my question for you, and everyone that claims it makes them so perceptively and clearly faster - how do you know? Given all the studies showing that it doesn't make you faster, how are you so sure it does?
From our perspective, the gains are so obvious that it really does feel like you must just be doing something fundamentally wrong not to see the same wins.
So when someone says "I can't make it do the magic that you're seeing" it makes me wonder why you don't have a long list of projects that you've never gotten around to because life gets in the way.
Because... if you don't have that list, to us that translates as painfully incurious. It's inconceivable that you don't have such a list because just being a geek in this moment should be enough that you constantly notice things that you'd like to try. If you don't have that, it's like when someone tells you that they don't have an inner monologue. You don't love them any less, but it's very hard not to look at them a bit differently.
quite frankly there seems to be something incredibly frustrating in your life going on, but I'm not sure that the underlying cause of whatever is weighing on your mind at the moment is that I asked "how do you know that what you are feeling is actually true, in comparison to what studies show should be true?" (rephrased, as not reasonable to quote whole post)
>From our perspective, the gains are so obvious that it really does feel like you must just be doing something fundamentally wrong not to see the same wins.
From my perspective, when I think i am experiencing something that data from multiple sources tell me is not what is actually happening I try to figure out how I can prove what I am experiencing, I reflect upon myself, have I somehow deluded myself? No? Then how do I prove it when analysis of many similar situations to my own show a different result?
You seem to think what I mean is people saying "Claude didn't help me, it wasn't worth it", no, just to clarify although I thought it was really clear, I am talking about numerous studies always being posted on HN so I'm sure you must have seen them where productivity gains from coding agents do not seem to actually show up in the work of those who use it. Studies conducted by third parties observing the work, not claims made by people performing the work.
I'm not going to go through the rest of your post, I get the urge to be insulting, especially as a stress release if you have a particularly bad time recently. But frankly, statistically speaking, my life is almost certainly significantly worse than yours, and for that reason, but not that reason alone, I will also quite confidently state without hardly any knowledge of you specifically but just my knowledge of my life and comparison of having met people throughout it, that my list dwarfs yours.
I'm not sure how or indeed why you draw lines from what I said to my life situation... which is relevant how?
What I apparently did not do a good enough job of conveying is that those "data from multiple sources" get cited and then people immediately reply with "those are old studies". It's circular in the same way that arguing with anti-vax people is circular.
The difference is that unlike vaccines, it's very easy for someone to see how productive they are when using LLMs properly. It's not a subtle difference.
Hence the frustration with people who keep insisting that we're imagining our own productivity. It's not a good faith inquiry.
I guess we aren't going to get anything meaningful between us on this subject, because you seem to think it is like arguing with an anti-vaxxer, which funny enough I thought the same thing,
So fine, you experience a gain, you just do, and it is so clear and evident you don't need to guard yourself against being deluded despite studies suggesting that gain is not there. That seems crazy to me, I would doubt and want to verify my gain if I read a study suggesting the gain was illusory. No meaningful convergence seems possible between needing verification and not needing verification.
At some point you just have to shrug and get back to work chopping down 3-5x more trees than you did last year.
For instance, there is a lot of evidence (and intuition, frankly) to the argument that while LLM increase superficial, short-term productivity, they also cause an extreme accumulation in technical debt that may more than wipe out any initial, fast progress down the line.
Putting it succinctly, these kind of conversations feel weird because it's like asking whether carpenters are faster using power tools or hand tools. If you've used power tools it's obvious they make work a lot faster. Maybe there were some studies around the time power tools were introduced looking at the productivity of carpenters, if those studies had results saying the productivity gains weren't obvious in the data that means you have a problem with your study and the data you have collected (which is totally understandable, measuring imprecise things like productivity accurately is really hard). You have to look at the evidence in front of you though, try telling the guy with a chainsaw that he's actually no more productive than he was when he was using an axe and he'll laugh at you.
This puts what I have been feeling in the recent months into words pretty concisely!
To me, it really is a force multiplier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47271883
Of course, I still have to pay attention to what AI is doing, and figure out ways how to automate more code checks, but the gradual trend in my own life is more AI, not less: https://blog.kronis.dev/blog/i-blew-through-24-million-token... (though letting it run unconstrained/unsupervised is a mess, I generally like to make Claude Code create a plan and iterate on it with Opus 4.6, then fire off a review, since getting the Max subscription I don't really need Cerebras or other providers, though I still appreciate them)
At the same time I've seen people get really bad results with AI, often on smaller models, or just expecting to give it vague instructions and get good results, with no automated linters or prebuild checks in place, or just copying snippets with no further context in some random chat session.
Who knows, maybe there's a learning curve and a certain mindset that you need to have to get a benefit from the technology, to where like 80% of developers will see marginal gains or even detriment, which will show up in most of the current studies. A bit like how for a while architecturally microservices and serverless were all the rage and most people did an absolutely shit job at implementing them, before (hopefully) enough collective wisdom was gained of HOW to use the technology and when.
I do get frustrated when I see people not using Plan steps, copy/pasting from web front-ends or expecting to one-shot their entire codebase from a single dense prompt. It's problematic because it's not immediately obvious whether someone is still arguing like it's late 2024, you know what I mean?
Also, speaking for myself I can't recommend that anyone use anything but Opus 4.5 right now. 4.6 has a larger context window, but it's crazy expensive when that context window gets actually used even while most agree that these models get dumber when they have a super-large context. 4.5 actually scores slightly better than 4.6 on agentic development, too! But using less powerful models is literally using tools that are much more likely to produce the sorts of results that skeptics think apply across the board.
> but it's crazy expensive
was something I struggled with until just going for the Max subscription and cancelling my other ones.
I'm not sure what Anthropic is doing, but they're either making truckloads of money from those paying per-token (especially since you're not supposed to use subscriptions for server use cases --> devs can use Claude Code, but not code review bots etc.), or heavily subsidizing subscriptions.
100 USD is worth it for me, I've only hit the 5 hour limits a few times, and haven't hit 100% of the weekly limits once. I fear to think how much comparable usage with any of the Opus models would have been, if I were to pay per token - even Sonnet could get similarly expensive.
I have a USD$200/month Cursor plan, and I do hundreds of hours worth of Opus 4.5 prompting with it every month. I tend to pay $250-300 a month after overages, and I consider myself a heavy user. During Opus 4.1 days, one month I paid $700. 4.5 got substantially cheaper and smarter, and I consider that the real moment agentic coding got real.
I don't know your financial situation and I recognize that $300/month is more than much of the world makes in a month. I am just saying that for me, what I'm working on is important enough that I am absolutely willing to pay a premium for access to the best tooling available, because every dollar I spend represents literally an hour of my time. Maybe more? It's so incredibly cheap compared to hiring an unreliable human who needs to sleep.
You can't pay someone $3600/year to lick stamps, much less pair program application development.
I think most I ever spent per month was 300 USD, but I had to cut down on that and Anthropic's subscription being way more affordable than paying per token (alongside GitHub Copilot, which also has multiple model support and pretty generous limits alongside unlimited autocomplete), since I'm also helping a friend with expenses during their chemo and some other friends with some meds and stuff, even though policemen and teachers and others have way worse financial circumstances than software devs in Latvia, the economy here doesn't give that much breathing room for that kind of thing.
Oh for a while I was also using Cerebras Code which gives you really generous token limits (like 24M per day on the 50 USD per month tier), though the GLM 4.7 model I tried out still made me go back and work on fixing its output more often than I'd like. Eventually I kinda settled on SOTA.
That said, I do remember a post here on HN where some founders were thinking whether they should throw something like over 1000 USD at Anthropic (the API variety) per month and they realized that for them that amount of money was totally reasonable, compared to getting some junior devs or whatever.
To me, all of the switching between dev environments + all of the time spent undoing errors causes by less powerful models has a huge time cost; not to be cliche that means it's very expensive to use error prone models and obsess over trying all of the new half-baked things (I've never even heard of most of the stuff you mentioned, lol). Like, if I spend an hour of my time mucking around with some tool, that's a good chunk of the $200/month I commit to Cursor.
Anyhow, at the real risk of sounding like an unpaid Cursor salesman, IMO it's worth every penny. For me, the jury is still out on whether people find Opus 4.6's 5x context to be valuable enough to pay significantly more for it over 4.5, which again is rated as being slightly better at agentic coding than 4.6. Since agentic coding is what I do....
Of course you might be heavily financially invested in AI companies so you might indeed have an incentive to hype up the tech
Or you might be relying on your hype to drive traffic to your blog
That said, if I did have a blog, the amount of negative attention that AI gets these days is not going to have the desired effect.
Sorry I don't have DX stats or token usage stats I can share, but based on the directives from on high, those stats are highly correlated (in the positive).
[edit] And SEV rates are not meaningfully higher.
Assuming inbound volume clearly increased is something like we've been handling more tickets than ever before over the last few quarters or something like that.
I've read this code review thing before, and this tends to go into these studies suggesting that the whole process is taking the same amount of time, but for that to be the case the code reviews would have to take longer on the individual code review level and for you it is just volume increase because of increased tickets being pushed through.
Is there anything about your ticketing strategy? For example do you make your tickets much more atomic than lots of teams who say they do but then end up with things that could be split up into two or three tickets? How much time do spend on preparing tickets for ready for development / ready for AI?
Just trying to identify behavioral patterns in your successful usage that would explain the success. Given the example of throughput of tickets over long time I suppose we can assume that the gain is not illusory.
For me, AI tools act like supercharged code search and auto complete. I have been able to make changes in complex components that I have rarely worked on. It saved me a week of effort to find the exact API calls that will do what I needed. The AI tool wrote the code and I only had to act as a reviewer. Of course I am familiar with the entire project and I knew the shape of the code to expect. But it saved me from digging out the exact details.
I think that is a fairly good definition of what an LLM is. I'd say the third leg of the definition is adjustable randomness.
Most of these studies were done one or more years ago, and predate the deployment and adoption of RLHF-based systems like Claude. Add to that, the AI of today is likely as bad as it's ever going to be (i.e., it's only going to get better). Though I do think the 10x claims are probably unfounded.
The thing is when I use an AI I sort of feel these gains, but not any greatness, it's like wow it would have taken me days to write all this reasonable albeit sort of mediocre code. I mean that is definitely a productivity gain. Because a lot of times you need to write just mediocre code. But there are parts where I would not have written it like that. So if I go through fixing all these parts, how much of a gain did I actually get?
As most posters on HN I am a conceited jerk, so I can claim that I have worked with lots of mediocre programmers (while ignoring the points where I was mediocre by thinking oh that didn't count I followed the documentation and how it was suggested to use the API and that was a stupid thing to do) and I certainly didn't fix everything that they did, because there just wasn't enough hours in the day.
And they did build stuff that worked, much of the time, so now I got an automated version of that. sweet. But how do I quantify the productivity? Since there are claims put forth with statistical backing that the productivity is illusory.
This is just one of those things that tend to affect me badly, I think X is happening, study shows X does not happen. Am I drinking too much Kool-Aid here or is X really happening!!? How to prove it!!? It is the kind of theoretical, logical problem seemingly designed to drive me out of my gourd.
Where I find it makes me faster is in dealing with writing low value code that's repetitive, which I might normally procrastinate. Like, the thing I'm working on is a data editor that generates a lot of fields, so having it churn out a lot of samey react code is useful to me in that context. There's already an obvious pattern for the tools to follow.
I also find it useful for "rubber ducking". Bouncing ideas I might previously have bugged a colleague about.
By faster I'm not suggesting a fanciful number for me. Maybe like 10 to 20 percent if I were to guess.
Yes. We are this generations highly skilled artisans, facing our own industrial revolution.
Just as the skilled textile workers and weavers of early 19’th century Britain were correct when they argued this new automated product was vastly inferior, it matters not at all. And just as they were also correct, that the government of the day was doing nothing to protect the lives and livelihoods of those who had spent decades mastering a difficult set of professional skills (the middle class of the day), the government of this day will also do nothing.
And it doesn’t end with “IT”; anything that can be turned into a factory process with our new “thinking engines” will be. Perhaps we can do better in society this time around. I am not hopeful.
We were already writing code that was automating not only manual work but also simpler programs. LLMs essentially just move us one more (large) hop up the abstraction ladder. And yes I get that it’s a different type of hop (non-deterministic, extremely leaky, etc), but it’s still a hop.
So if the only thing you want to do is manually write code in the traditional way (perhaps with vim instead of IntelliJ) then yeah I think you’re cooked. On the other hand, if you are willing to work with LLM-assisted tooling and learn how to compensate for its shortcomings then I think you’ll have a bright future.
I think there's a place for thoughtful dialogue around what this means for software engineering, but I don't think that's going to change anything at this point. If developers just don't want to participate in this new world, for whatever reason, I'm not judging them, but also I don't think the genie is going back in the bottle. There will be no movement to organize labor to protect us and there be no deus ex machina that is going to reverse course on this stuff.