News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by Goronmon on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:03PM (#4665037)
I find the rules to be fairly clear.

1) You can't ban content just because it offends someone, there wouldn't be much content left, if any. Is religion distasteful? Violent images of war? Gay marriage?

And it's not like a user is forced into subreddits to view content they don't like. The whole point of the site is for individual users to make decisions on the type of content they are viewing and participating in.

2) "doxxing" isn't some random rule they came up with to protect people who post 'distasteful' photos. AFAIK it's been a long-standing issue to prevent users from rallying users to harass other users outside of the site, whether it's justified or not. Instances in the past have seen people twist facts about a story to make someone out to be a bad buy, post that person's personal information and then that person is harassed via phone calls, emails, letters about some non-existent offense they are accused to have perpetrated.

I'm not sure the specifics on the Gawker ban issue though, so I can't speak to that.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by jmillikin on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:18PM (#4665129)

  > You can't ban content just because it offends someone,
  > there wouldn't be much content left, if any. Is religion
  > distasteful? Violent images of war? Gay marriage?
That's a slippery-slope argument, and it's ridiculous in this case. Reddit isn't being pressured to ban any and all offensive content; they're being pressured specifically about sexually-suggestive photographs of underage girls, created without consent.

In fact, Reddit already has rules against this sort of content. From their user agreement: "You further agree not to use any sexually suggestive language or to provide to or post on or through the Website any graphics, text, photographs, images, video, audio or other material that is sexually suggestive or appeals to a prurient interest."

So what the pressure is really about is Reddit ignoring their own rules to benefit one of their personal friends, and a small horde of terrible people defending this decision by pretending that teenage upskirts are free speech.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by Goronmon on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:23PM (#4665158)
That's a slippery-slope argument, and it's ridiculous in this case. Reddit isn't being pressured to ban any and all offensive content; they're being pressured specifically about sexually-suggestive photographs of underage girls, created without consent.

Haven't they already decided not to allow the pictures of underage girls? I could be wrong, but I thought that had happened a while ago with the closing of /r/jailbait or some similar subreddit.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by jmillikin on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:26PM (#4665181)

  > Haven't they already decided not to allow the pictures
  > of underage girls? I could be wrong, but I thought that
  > had happened a while ago with the closing of /r/jailbait
  > or some similar subreddit.
They close particular subreddits when they become widely featured, such as /r/jailbait on CNN or /r/creepshots on Gawker.

They do not ban the users who posted such content, and do not take measures to prevent them from re-creating the same subreddit under a different name.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by danielweber on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:15PM (#4665458)
As a point of order: the admins did not kill creepshots. People who didn't like it got the personal info of a mod and blackmailed him into shutting it down.

Several clones of creepshots popped up and most of them got shut down pretty quick, so it looks like reddit has some kind of new rule but they haven't told the community what it is.

I'm pretty sure there were jailbait-clones set up that got shut down, too.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by danielweber on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:05PM (#4665396)
You further agree not to use any sexually suggestive language or to provide to or post on or through the Website any graphics, text, photographs, images, video, audio or other material that is sexually suggestive or appeals to a prurient interest.

I like the rest of your argument, but this rule exists only on paper. This is lots of porn on reddit, both people posting self-shots as well as (almost assuredly pirated, but that's a separate discussion) professional porn.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by aes256 on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:35PM (#4665242)
You are grossly misrepresenting the nature of the content posted on /r/creepshots here.

Your description of "sexually-suggestive photographs of underage girls" is way off the mark.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:40PM (#4665272)
In anticipation of the relentless quibbling about what is or isn't "sexually suggestive", I opted to use the word "compromising". Having said that: a Google search for this term finds pictures of teenage girls often with their faces blurred; it's pretty clear what the point of the photos are: to objectify girls and young women. That the objectification is happening as much for the amusement of adults as for their direct sexual gratification doesn't change things up too much for me. Maybe it does for other people.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by aes256 on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:49PM (#4665311)
/r/creepshots was almost exclusively photos of women, very few of whom were obviously underage, in public places.

The extent to which these photos were "sexually suggestive" was largely in control of the women concerned. If you're going to wear low-cut tops, yoga pants, etc. then a photo of yourself taken in public may be interpreted as sexually suggestive.

Contributors to the subreddit were just posting things they had seen in public. What's wrong with that?

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:52PM (#4665318)
You realize that this argument about the implied consent to sexualize someone based on their attire is extremely fraught, right?
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by aes256 on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:01PM (#4665377)
Since when did people need consent to post pictures they took, legally, of people in public, where these people have no expectation of privacy, then post them on the Internet with words to the effect of "I find this person physically attractive, I would like to have sexual relations with this person"?

I can sexualize whatever I like, thank you very much.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:03PM (#4665384)
That is a repellant point of view, but I don't have the patience to argue about it further.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by rmc on Thursday October 18, 2012 @03:53PM (#4670737)
Some countries recognise the right of privacy. In which case, it is illegal to distribute personal information (like photos) of people without their consent.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by rmc on Thursday October 18, 2012 @03:53PM (#4670735)
Women (or anyone really) do not give consent to be photographed for sexual purposes merely for wearing a certain type of clothing in public.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:06PM (#4665059)
You'd think maybe posting photos of minors without their consent might also have been a rule to prevent long-standing issues. But, no?
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by Goronmon on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:18PM (#4665123)
You'd think maybe posting photos of minors without their consent might also have been a rule to prevent long-standing issues. But, no?

What is the long-standing issue that you would be preventing though? It's creepy and wrong to be sure, but say banning a specific subreddit with that content, what is the result of that action?

With doxxing you have documented cases of people being harassed based on people finding out their true identity. So banning doxxing helps to prevent situations where people are harassed outside of the site for the things they do on the site.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tzs on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @04:57PM (#4666405)
> With doxxing you have documented cases of people being harassed based on people finding out their true identity. So banning doxxing helps to prevent situations where people are harassed outside of the site for the things they do on the site.

And banning posting candid sexually suggestive photos of kids helps to prevent the subjects of the photos from getting harassed at school when someone finds the photos online. I don't see why that should be any less important than trying to prevent harassment of people who take and post those photos.

At least the person who gets harassed over posting the photos is getting harassed for something he actually deliberately did, whereas the kid might be getting harassed for accidentally showing some cleavage or some underwear. Or maybe it is ultimately the kid's fault for not dressing like a Saudi woman when in public.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:20PM (#4665144)
Interrogate the assertion that those photos are "creepy and wrong". Why are they creepy and wrong? I think you'll find the answer to your question in there.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by Goronmon on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:27PM (#4665183)
Interrogate the assertion that those photos are "creepy and wrong". Why are they creepy and wrong? I think you'll find the answer to your question in there.

Or you could just answer my question.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by fosap on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:33PM (#4665227)
Thinks that you don't like are creepy. Browsing photos on facebook is creepy. Watching anime is creepy. Two males kissing or merely being gay is creepy. Why would anybody give a fuck if you think something is creepy?
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:50PM (#4665312)
No, that's not my argument. The creepiness of these particular photos was his assertion, and I suggested that he interrogate his assertion about why they were creepy (and "wrong") to help see why these photos are in particular problematic.

I was specifically not litigating the enforceability of "creepiness" standards.

For what it's worth: Watching anime isn't creepy. Two males kissing isn't creepy.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by fosap on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:08PM (#4665410)
Ah, ok, my bad. But. Watching anime and two males kissing is definitively creepy. Ask any high schooler.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:12PM (#4665434)
I agree that this is a good illustration of why "creepiness" isn't a moral or practical standard.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by fosap on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:30PM (#4665206)
No, i don't see why. It is a long standing rule that posting photos about Scientology without their consent is ok.

I don't what sense this rule would would make. As long as nobody can google it (since no name) no one is hurt. So what?

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:32PM (#4665215)
I don't understand the equivalence between Scientologists and minors.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by fosap on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:34PM (#4665239)
There is no difference. It's ok to posts photos without consent or it is not. Or tell me where you draw the line.

/edit

Or why the consent of a random 17 year old girl has more value that the consent of a random 20 year old guy working at a random CoS org.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by danielweber on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:24PM (#4665517)
People have suggested various rules:

- no sexual comments

- no kids

- no candid shots (where the subject is clearly not aware of the picture)

There's plenty of lines that could be drawn there. Various people have played stupid that no combination of these rules simply couldn't work, but this isn't a brand new problem no one has wondered about before.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:53PM (#4665333)
I am drawing the line at compromising (sexualized, objectified, or deliberately embarrassing) photos of minors.

So again, I don't see the equivalence.

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by fosap on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:15PM (#4665460)
What is compromising? Photos of feet? Completely harmless to most people, for some better than tits. There is also a hair fetish. And probably there are a way more. Only post pictures of people wearing burkas?
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by danielweber on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:25PM (#4665519)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki%27s_Wager

(boy it's hard to post a URL with a ' in it)

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by fosap on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:40PM (#4665604)
So, what does this tells us about photos of feet?
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @01:42PM (#4665618)
Photos of feet are fine.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by xxpor on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:22PM (#4665154)
I don't know what these pictures were like because I had never been on creepshots, but if they were taken in public, there isn't really anything (legally) wrong with them.

People in public spaces can be photographed without their consent. That's a very clear rule, at least in the US. See: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @12:24PM (#4665169)
The lawfulness of those photos has been disputed. But either way, posting the name, phone number, and employer of someone posting photos to Reddit is also not against the law.
Re:Reddit will not ban 'distasteful' content, chief executiv... by sentenza on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @03:31PM (#4666034)
So public humiliation in the form of an online-pillory is OK?

Because that is exactly what this is. A platform for the public humiliation of women who walk in public.

If we don't tolerate it for the guilty, why should we tolerate it for the innocent?