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Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by general1465 on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @07:24AM (#45978736)
Yeah the whole definition is bogus. i.e. "mechanically separated meat" is considered ultraprocessed food? Why? By this logic putting apples into mixer and creating pyre is ultraprocessed food too.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by _aavaa_ on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @07:26AM (#45978757)
And even if you want to define it as such, why is that bad for health?
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by Lord-Jobo on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:09AM (#45979140)
Tangent because I do think you are asking a pretty clear question, but I find it’s much more helpful in these discussions to specify why(mechanical explanation) from why(elaborate on known info) from why(what is the human reason for an action).

Because you really can interpret any of these in a lot of the situations where someone is asking “why”.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by zug_zug on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:00AM (#45979076)
It’s bad for health because the science says so.

You’re welcome to do your own years of research to learn more (everything, cooking, freezing, drying, blending, adding acids affects amino acids and certainly bacteria in the food) but until then stick with what the studies prove

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:04AM (#45979098)
I guess a reasonable person can question the science, when ordinary words are used wildly inappropriately. E.g. 'ultra-processed' to mean things that are far from that.

If 'the science' is so conclusive, then maybe a single link to a single study would be an appropriate response.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by zug_zug on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:26AM (#45979889)
How about responding to the one in the article…?
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by IAmBroom on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @11:47AM (#45981745)
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by UncleMeat on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:06AM (#45979644)
The science is messy.

The UPF definition includes a ton of very distinct things. It is unlikely that emulsifiers, preservatives, food dyes, added sugar, and removed fiber all produce the same health responses. Science showing correlations between UPF consumption and health outcomes also don't tend to show a dose response, which is odd. We'd expect lots of UPF consumption to be very bad and for some UPF consumption to be kind of bad, but we don't tend to see this in the data.

Nutritional research is also enormously difficult to perform. Any sort of controlled study is necessarily over short periods of time. Long term studies come with all of the messy confounds that make it remarkably difficult to determine causation.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by zug_zug on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:28AM (#45979911)
The one in the article is dose dependent…

And I really don’t understand your point at all. All science starts with observing a correlation and deducing a cause years to centuries later.

But you don’t wait for newton to start believing in gravity

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by UncleMeat on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @10:05AM (#45980446)
I don't have free access to the paper and dose response findings are not present in the summary. Can you reference the dose response findings for me?

Existing published research has not consistently found a dose response.

The authors are also not just saying "hey here is some science." They are advocating for policies that say that plain potato chips can be in schools but sour cream and onion potato chips cannot.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by metalman on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:25AM (#45979264)
it's not food,thats why

it is a food substitute. food is composed of recognisable ingedients. what comes from factorys has no connection or relation to that. the unspoken premise is that pre prepared stuff with a label is somehow part of a continuity. , pared= to cut/divided

prepared=cut/divided~for you

pre prepared= wtf?

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by Jensson on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:44AM (#45979420)
> it's not food,thats why

Its pure meat, meat is food. What do you mean?

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by _aavaa_ on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:29AM (#45979308)
What are you talking about? Why is it not food?
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by stephen_g on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:41AM (#45979392)
I’ve seen one theory that it might be something to do with not needing as much chewing and how quickly you can eat it. I can’t remember exactly the article I was reading but apparently there is a massive difference (e.g. insulin spike, etc.) eating apple purée of one apple vs. eating an apple.

Needing to chew less processed food may help just by being kind of rate-limiting (slowing down how fast you can get the food in), but also the enzymes in your saliva have time to start working on the food before you swallow it.

If I recall correctly I have also read (perhaps the same article, but maybe somewhere else) that some processes related to digestion might be triggered when you start eating (chewing), so the fact that you can eat so many calories so quickly before those processes get going might make a big difference too.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by lentil_soup on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:48AM (#45979460)
as I understand, it's also the fiber. The fiber acts as a barrier that slows down the speed at which you absorb the food which leads to a smoother insulin spike (in case of carbs) and a faster feeling of satiation. When you blend the apple all that fiber is broken down do it loses those properties
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by UncleMeat on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @10:40AM (#45980931)
Nobody knows. This is one of the things that makes efforts to regulate UPFs frustrating.

Some people say that it is lack of fiber. Some people say that it is inflammation caused by preservatives and/or stabilizers. Some people say it is the hyperpaletability, which encourages people to overconsume calories. Some people say it is just the high amounts of sugar and salt. And it is unlikely that all of these things contribute equally such that they should all be regulated the same.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by macNchz on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:31AM (#45979320)
Does anybody eat mechanically separated meat as-is? I imagine it’s basically only available to end users as a final product like chicken nuggets or hot dogs, mixed with many additives.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by htek on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:54AM (#45979530)
Those identically shaped chicken, turkey and ham for slicing at the deli are generally mechanically separated.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by general1465 on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:52AM (#45979498)
It is available as ground meat. You can make meatloaf from it. Or you can buy preformed meatballs which is just ground meat with some shape so you can just drop it into pan and bake in the oven. 40 minutes and done.

Peel some potatoes, cook them and you have a dinner in said 40 minutes.

And I have no idea why this would be classified as ultraprocessed food.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by sigwinch on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @11:12AM (#45981312)
Acually, MSM is not found in hamburger, only hot dogs.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by macNchz on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:34AM (#45980000)
Ground meat is different from mechanically separated meat, which is a paste. At least personally I haven’t seen ground meat for sale in the US that lists MSM as an ingredient, though it may exist.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by SPICLK2 on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:05AM (#45979634)
Is such "ground meat" labelled differently from ground or minced meat that is made the traditional way?
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by macNchz on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:32AM (#45979969)
In the US at least they are considered different things and must be labelled as such.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by Jensson on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:43AM (#45979411)
You never ate ground meat? It is very common to buy separated processed meat without other ingredients since it is very quick and easy to cook.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by macNchz on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:55AM (#45979536)
Mechanically separated meat is different from ground meat, it’s made by pressing unusable scraps through a sieve to remove bits of bone. The end result is a paste.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by sigwinch on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @11:10AM (#45981287)
Pâté is the commercial offering.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by 4d4m on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @07:17PM (#45987142)
Diff production method (not a hydraulic sieve with meat treated with ammonia)
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by glitchc on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:41AM (#45979394)
So the additives are unhealthy?
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by macNchz on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:11AM (#45979705)
I don’t think anybody has a concrete answer yet, I’ve seen speculation that the texture of the food may be a component, and the extreme palatability that causes people to eat more than they otherwise would. There are so many potential root causes that it will take time to pinpoint specific ones, but what is becoming clear that eating lots of foods with additives and highly altered basic ingredients (like mechanically separated meat) is not good for you.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by glitchc on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:43AM (#45980140)
I have a hard time understanding how the act of mechanically separating meat from bone and gristle renders it unfit for consumption. Texture certainly matters for taste, but once masticated, all food is roughly the same texture. Digestion is a biochemical process, and if the body is experiencing adverse reactions to certain foods, the cause should be a biochemical one.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by IAmBroom on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @11:46AM (#45981729)
Again, no one is claiming that every component of every ultra-processed food is bad.

As an aggregate, the category of foods appears to be bad for us.

And we aren't sure why yet.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by hexaga on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @03:30PM (#45984702)
> if the body is experiencing adverse reactions to certain foods, the cause should be a biochemical one

No. I can look at a picture of gross food, or imagine it, and be nauseated. Restricting potential causes this tightly is wrong. UPFs have a huge causal surface--how one ingredient breaks down into nutrients is basically not optimized at all compared to all the other stuff. Why only look at the unoptimized part as causal origin, when the optimization is the common factor making it bad?

To put it another way, we know all the stuff that has had a ton of work put into making it something lots of people will buy, is just generally bad for unclear reasons. Examining the aspect which has had very little work put into it is clearly not the way to go.

It could be something as weird as people's built-in heuristics for which food to eat (cravings) being actually kinda important to hit specific nutrient breakpoints at different times. By subsuming those cravings using UPF technology, that stops working and general health suffers.

It could be that the baseline palatability of the output of the mechanical process is low, and so the product is universally combined with an additive that recovers palatability, but has some health drawback.

The overarching pattern here is that optimization geared toward overcoming people's heuristics of what to consume makes these kinds of decisions all the time. Doing one thing to make it cheaper to produce makes it worse at getting people to buy it, but we can just cheat back the ability to get people to buy it by turning the dial on another thing that reliably makes people want to buy it, at the cost of being horrible for them.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by 4d4m on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @07:23PM (#45987189)
Ammonia. Sh*ts full of bacteria it has to be treated
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by throwaway89201 on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:42AM (#45979399)
I'm not sure you are replying knowing what "mechanically separated meat is", as it isn't just cutting / separating pieces of regular meat using machinery. It's the sieving of a ground up bone/flesh mix into a meat paste. The result product is not something you would normally call meat, and called 'white slime' by some.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by lentil_soup on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:51AM (#45979491)
Apples are actually a great example.

Think of eating an apple vs drinking apple juice. The amount of entire apples you can drink is immense compared to eating the apple whole. So the mechanical process does affect how we consume the food.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by mr_mitm on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:40AM (#45980105)
If you are asking the question whether UPF is bad, surely you got to control for the amount. Of course you can say that people tend to eat too much of UPF simply because it is easier to prepare and eat, but that doesn't mean it's the processing that is bad for you. It's still just the amount.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by sigwinch on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @10:20AM (#45980643)
So rather than apple juice, consider watermelon juice. The nutrition and fiber are unchanged, the volume is close to 1:1. But you can drink more than you can eat.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by lentil_soup on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @01:13PM (#45982823)
But that's part of it. There's a part to do with the nutrient quality, which can also be talked about, but also a part that has to do with how UPF are consumed. The act of processing the food a certain way makes you eat more of it without realising it. Same with fat and sugar, eating a stick of butter on its own is hard, same with pure sugar, mix them up and it's delicious and addictive which leads to health problems.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by Concrete3286 on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @08:53AM (#45979508)
Seems like a reasonable definition? It's not referring to tissue you put through a grinder yourself.

From wikipedia:

Mechanically separated meat (MSM), mechanically recovered/reclaimed meat (MRM), or mechanically deboned meat (MDM) is a paste-like meat product produced by forcing pureed or ground beef, pork, mutton, turkey or chicken under high pressure through a sieve or similar device to separate the bone from the edible meat tissue. When poultry is used, it is sometimes called white slime as an analog to meat-additive pink slime and to meat extracted by advanced meat recovery systems, both of which are different processes. The process entails pureeing or grinding the carcass left after the manual removal of meat from the bones and then forcing the slurry through a sieve under pressure.

The resulting product is a blend primarily consisting of tissues not generally considered meat, along with a much smaller amount of actual meat (muscle tissue).

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by UncleMeat on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @09:02AM (#45979602)
But what's the issue? I can eat beef and beef tendon separately but if they are blended together it suddenly becomes bad?
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by alkyon on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @11:27AM (#45981510)
Mechanically separated meat is a marketing term. It's neither 100% meat (in fact it contains tons or fat and joints) nor a good quality meat (this one is sold separately). I don't buy any products that list it among its ingredients.

Ground beef its not the same thing

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by UncleMeat on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @12:43PM (#45982399)
Right but what is wrong with fat and joints?

When I make stock with a chicken carcass a lot of the stuff I consume came from the bones, ligaments, and tendons in the chicken rather than from lean meat. What makes extracting that into water different than extracting that into a paste?

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by mrguyorama on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @05:39PM (#45986294)
Metabolically, you will have different results eating lots of sausage vs eating lots of pork loin, even though both are "pork meat with fat"

Because the fat fraction matters.

Reclaimed chicken has lots of connective tissue and skin, which are fatty and has different makeup than say, the breast.

>When I make stock with a chicken carcass a lot of the stuff I consume came from the bones, ligaments, and tendons in the chicken rather than from lean meat. What makes extracting that into water different than extracting that into a paste?

In a stew, one or two chicken carcasses will leach lots of oil and fat into a large stew that fills ten bowls. Specific recipes will also explicitly call for you to remove that fat, and most consumers want soups that are fairly not fatty.

In reclaimed meats, one carcass gets you a couple nuggets. It's up to 30% fat, and unlike say 85% ground beef, will be mixed with thickeners and flour that will soak up that fat during cooking and not let it escape consumption.

Personally, I think mechanically separated meat and other sausage and "use the whole animal" systems are good and delicious. But I'm a fatty. And even I know not to eat baloney every day after one week where I ate a baloney sandwich every day and had rather negative bathroom experiences.

Fat isn't "unhealthy" like the 90s sugar industry wanted you to believe, but it is calorie dense and delicious, which drives you to eat more of it, and means eating the same volume of food will give you more calories.

One pound of skinned chicken breast is like 500 calories. One pound of nuggets is like 1000.

We aren't going to find a set of additives or preservatives or ingredients as the culprit because it's not about the chemistry. It's psychology and biology. The root of the problem is that PepsiCo makes more money if you eat chips and soda every day than if you don't. As long as PepsiCo makes more money from you eating yourself to death, that's going to be the outcome.

Plenty of you get angry about the "military industrial complex" but PepsiCo did significantly more revenue than Raytheon last year: $91 billion, and takes about a 10% profit margin.

The closest you can come in the "ingredient" dimension is things like regulating added sugar and added salt and added colors and added fats, but that's easy to bypass. Your soda wont have added sugar, it will have something like "Apple juice" as an ingredient that is almost itself entirely sugar and water.

Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by emchammer on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @10:23AM (#45980681)
Disgusting and disrespectful to the animal.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by UncleMeat on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @10:34AM (#45980861)
If we are going to kill an animal to eat it then we should use all of it.
Re:Ultra-processed food linked to harm in every major human ... by IAmBroom on Wednesday November 19, 2025 @11:44AM (#45981702)
First, I think you're misreading it. The Wikipedia article lists "mechanically separated meat" as one of the ingredients that are used in ultra-processed foods.

The other point is already covered by other replies. "Mechanically separated meat" is not a term for your mother's chicken salad remake of last Sunday's roast chicken.