That's the thing. Even when you consider the hardware benefits. Let's say they're 10% better (I feel but happy to be corrected, that feels understated).

There isn't a single machine out there that's even moderately close in terms of build quality. Either at the dollar cost for an entry series MacBook Pro or Air with 36GB (38?) memory.

I don't think there's an OEM Linux or Windows laptop with Linux as a first class citizen laptop out there even moderately close for value, performance and build quality.

Shit I'm not sure if there's even one out there if you spent considerably more than on a MacBook. MacBook Pro's are pretty good value now.

From personal experience, laptops that cost $30000+ (yes, USD) still come nowhere close to even a macbook air in terms of build quality. They have much better specs, but if you run Windows on it, the effects are much less pronounced. I have moved from a new Dell to a macbook with half the cpu and ram and for me t least it "feels" like the macbook is twice as fast and as responsive. I don't know if it is just better architecture or fine tuned software, but that's my experience.

Apple used the whole "economy of scale" effect to invest in specialized tooling/machining that would be too costly to recover the ROI for other OEMs. Keep in mind that consumer laptop makers to the most part don't make a profit (or have a low profit margin - last i checked at least) on laptops and printers. No one else has made the economics of using quality material, top of the line design, and specialized machining/tooling work like Apple.

I think for generic OEMs that may hold , however for manufactures like Huawei with their matebookX line the build quality is pretty much on-par while the components and options being offthe shelf standard means it should be easier to upgrade/support and port Linux to than MacBooks.Also the price is pretty much competititve for the kit that one gets. The blocking isseu would be getting one as the whole US attack on the company means their kit is pretty much limited edition within China at the moment currently.Maybe in a year or two they should be available at previous volumes.

I had a Huawei Magicbook for years that finally died last year. It was as close to Apple quality as I'd ever seen in hardware (except for the damn touchpad again - although the Huawei one was head and shoulders above any other non-Apple one).

For hardware quality, Huawei is solidly in second place, with the rest trailing pretty far behind.

My 2000 euro Thinkpad has better specs, I run Windows 11 on it, get to do CUDA and Vulkan natively, and there is DirectX 12 Ultimate as well.

Macs are great as an OS with UNIX infrastructure, aa graphical laptops relevant for workloads besides Photoshop and Sketch, not so much.

And then there’s battery life and sleep drain. Only a handful of competitors come close, and those have caveats like significantly reduced peak performance and the usual papercuts so common in the x86 laptop world.

It’s such a problem that if I were to switch away from Apple, I’d try to find a way to go desktop-exclusive and not use a laptop at all, because everything else on the market is so compromise-ridden as to not be worth the trouble. And I say this as the owner of an X series ThinkPad, which are among the better options in that world.

It’s as if most laptop manufacturers can’t be arsed to take their products seriously. So frustrating.

Thinkpad X1 is very solid and sexy hardware imo, tastes may vary

But my favorite machine of late is a tiny ultra portable with a Ryzen AI 9 chip with 64Gb RAM, it's an x86 that's competitive with the new ARM stuff on power efficiency

I'm curious, which ultraportable is that?

thought you'd never ask :^)

GPD Win Max 2 with the AI 9 HX 370

I’d say newest Surface Laptops are on par.

What does it matter if hardware still works in 10 years if you can't upgrade software anymore, nor can you replace it with something you have control over (like Linux)?

I still have a fully functioning iPhone 4s somewhere. I could still use it as a daily driver hardware-wise, but it is sadly deprecated (32-bit), so - no software support anymore.

I installed Linux Mint on a 2014 macbook pro for my wife and its still going strong.

Yes and the discussion here is about how that's not something that might be possible in the future, based on M1 and M2 support still being partial and M3 really experimental

I can’t believe you’re gaslighting us all by claiming “long term viability” is better on a MacBook, a system with zero user-replaceable components, a glued-in battery, soldered-in memory, etc.

A MacBook loses software updates in 10 years. Sometimes less. You can install what amounts to reverse engineered Linux on one if you lose your macOS updates. You have a choice of basically one viable distro.

And this idea that no other competitor makes hardware in a similar class of quality is extremely outdated. I actually own both a modern MacBook and a Framework. This isn’t some HP shitbook from 2011. It’s all aluminum, like I said the keyboard is literally superior to Mac systems, and are we just going to gloss over 2016-2020 when Apple just shit the bed and made utter garbage? Are we going to gloss over how the current systems have a gigantic notch blocking the menu bar that’s somehow bigger than FaceID but only houses a middling webcam?

You admit you broke a screen on your MacBook. How much did that cost you to repair? How long did you wait without your system to repair it? Or did you just go off and buy a new one?

The screen repair was like $150. I've had framebooks and they broke within 3 years from hardware failures. macbooks going strong a decade+. You can repair framework, you usually don't have to with a mac. Plus, for people who can't repair their own pc, apple's support is better than framework,dell,etc.

and please ffs, stop misusing the term "gaslight". someone having a different opinion and experience than you is not the same gaslighting you. gaslighting is when someone blames you for a harm they themselves caused. it isn't even possible for me to gaslight you in this context since the harm caused can only come from apple or someone making you use apple products.

> And this idea that no other competitor makes hardware in a similar class of quality is extremely outdated.

You might be right, but framework isn't it. We're having this discussion to better inform each other, so what laptop do you recommend that has a similar build quality as an MBP?

You had a framework that broke in 3 years. I had a MacBook Pro 15” 2016 with a defective keyboard design that had repeating keystrokes within a year, which wasn’t corrected on the design of the machines until 4 years later.

It’s gaslighting because you’re trying to convince us of a different alternate reality than the observed truthful reality, not just a different opinion. You’re trying to tell us that factually non-user-repairable MacBooks with a manufacturer that refuses to sell spare parts with a major hardware reliability scandal under its belt less than 10 years ago will stand the test of time.

I never claimed that you can find hardware that is 100% as good as MacBooks, I’m only claiming that the extra XX% better hardware polish/quality/battery life you get with a Mac is not really worth giving up expandable storage and easy Linux compatibility in the context of someone who was going to install Asahi Linux instead of macOS. And there are PC systems that get closer than ever to MacBook quality. ThinkPad X1 Carbon, some higher end ASUS Zenbook systems I’ve played with, even some of the thin and light gaming-oriented systems out there are really nice quality as the space is very competitive.

If the only major compromises are battery life (solved by a $50 spare battery or a wall outlet at the coffee shop) or how much my laptop feels like a luxury indulgence like a fashionable handbag, I’m personally fine with that.

I won't address anything else you've said because you keep abusing "gaslighting". I had a different experience and spoke about, others on the thread echoed my experience. Every mac user i've met so far has had similar experiences. I didn't tell you that your experience is wrong or invalid, i simply stated mine. You're abusing this trendy term as a cheat-code to avoid having to make reasonable arguments.

> I don't think any other competitor makes hardware of a similar class in terms of quality.

This is nonsense. I've owned Dell Business, Thinkpads and several Apple products including an iBook g4, Macbook Pro and a Mac Mini (G4 and Intel).

The Dell Business and Thinkpads while they don't look as nice are far more rugged. My Dell 6410 could probably be used as a make shift weapon in a fight and easily survive. I have a T480 and it while it is small and pretty thin IMO, it is built pretty sturdy.

Do they look as nice? No they don't. But they are similar quality if it is business. I personally prefer No BS and strength as they are meant for work.

The thing that macs do better than other laptops is the screens are usually nicer. However these days there is less of a gap. I was surprised how good the screen is on Dell Precision work provided me with.

> Specs are one thing, how the product looks, feels, attention to detail, and most importantly: long term viability!

You have this impression due to the packaging when you first open it. They deliberately design the packaging that way so you have that impression (there is a bit of science behind this).

https://filestage.io/blog/apple-packaging/

https://www.dreamcustomboxes.com/apple-packaging/

A lot of companies ape this packaging because it works.

> even if you take away everything else, macbooks are though. I've used a couple for over a decade with no hardware repair (except when I broke a screen). Most mac users have similar experiences, so it's not survivor's bias.

This is nonsense. Macs have over the last 15-20 years have had a very mixed record on terms reliability and repair-ability. Repairs are cost prohibitive. Many of the components are proprietary and cannot be sourced easily other than removing from other dead laptops. I am fairly friendly with a Mac repair specialist in my area. He says it is basically getting harder and harder to repair them.

I have first hand experience of the Mac Pro laptops circa 2015. Battery is glue'd in on many models and when the battery is EOL it will clock the machine down to 800Mhz even on mains. Removing the battery is difficult as you have to dissolve the glue. As it was out of warranty I had to get a local repair guy to remove it. Cost about ~£200. Later the same year the official charger went bad and burned up the power traces. Same local repair guy said it was about £150, that with the cost of a new charger made replacing the Mac a no go and I decided to recycle it.

Compare this with any Dell Business model. I can for the most part just crack off the back and remove and replace a lot of parts without any specialist tools. This is deliberate because they usually have to be serviced by IT departments.

> If all you care about is specs or open hardware, obviously Apple hardware is not for you.

Apple computer hardware for the most part is bought by people that want things that look nice.