It was hilarious because clearly none of the people who were in favor had ever used ASN.1.
I especially like XDR, though maybe that's because I worked at Sun Microsystems :)
"Pointers" in XDR are really just `OPTIONAL` in ASN.1. Seems so silly to call them pointers. The reason they called them "pointers" is that that's how they represented optionality in the generated structures and code: if the field was present on the wire then the pointer is not null, and if it was absent the then pointer is null. And that's exactly what one does in ASN.1 tooling, though maybe with a host language Optional<> type rather than with pointers and null values. Whereas in hand-coded ASN.1 codecs one does sometimes see special values used as if the member had been `DEFAULT` rather than `OPTIONAL`.
The main problem is that to work with the data you need to understand the semantics of the magic object identifiers and while things like the PKIX module can be found easily, the definitions for other more obscure namespaces for extensions can be harder to locate as it's scattered in documentation from various standardization organizations.
So, protobuf could very well have been transported in DER, the problem issue was probably more one of Google not seeing any value of interoperability and wanting to keep it simple (or worse, clashing by oblivious users re-using the wrong less well documented namespaces).
You are truly a masochist and I salute you.
Completely ignoring the ASN.1 support for complicated structures, with more than one CVE linked to incorrect parsing of these text fields m
We _are_ using subject DNs for linking certs to their issuers, but though that's "free-form", we don't parse them, we only check for equality.
With wildcards.
The problems with PKI/PKIX all go back to terrible, awful, no good, very bad ideas about naming that people in the OSI/European world had in the 80s -- the whole x.400/x.500 naming style where they expected people to use something like street addresses as digital names. DNS already existed, but it seems almost like those folks didn't get the memo, or didn't like it.
What people forget is that you do not have to use the whole set of schema attributes.
And encrypted and/or signed email? That too, though very poorly, but the issue there is key management, and DAP/LDAP don't help because in the age of spam public directories are not a thing. Right now the best option for cryptographic security for email is hop-bby-hop encryption using DANE for authentication in SMTP, with headers for requesting this, and headers for indicating whether received email transited with cryptographic protection all the way from sender to recipient.
As for the "ability to address groups in flexible ways", I'm not sure what that means, but I've never see group distribution lists not be sufficient.
As for group addressing, distribution lists are pitiful in comparison especially on discovery side.
Anyway, ultimately the big issue is that the DAP schema is always presented as "oh you need all the details", when... you don't. And we never got to point of really implementing things well outside the more expected use case where people do not, actually, use them directly but pick by name/function from directory.
Oh I can't remember. Binary attachments have worked since I started using them long long ago. It worked at least in the mind-90s. Back then I was using both, Internet email and x.400 (HP OpenMail!), and x.400 was a massive pain (for me especially since I was one of the people who maintained a gateway between the two). I know what you're referring to: it took a long time for email to get "8-bit clean" / MIME because of the way SMTP works, but MIME was very much a thing by the mid-90s.
So it took a while if you count the days of UUCP email -- round it to two decades. But "by the md-90s" was plenty good enough because that's when the Internet revolution hit big companies. Lack of binary attachments wasn't something that held back Internet adoption. As far as the public and corps are concerned the Internet only became a thing circa 1994 anyways.
> As for group addressing, distribution lists are pitiful in comparison especially on discovery side.
Discovery, meaning directories. Those are nice inside corporate networks, which is where you need this functionality, so I agree, and yes people use Exchange / Exchange 365 / Outlook for this sort of thing, though even mutt can do LDAP-based discovery (poorly, but yes). Outside corporate networks directories are only useful within academia and governments / government labs. Outside all of that no one wants directories because they would only encourage the spammers.
And in some ways desire of people to send non-7bit-ascii text as email is also a continued brokenness in SMTP email.
As for directories - my point was more that directories hid the addressing details from surface UI. Otherwise AFAIK X.400 works perfectly fine without using everything in the possible schema.
Fun fact - Exchange is actually X.400 system, despite no longer having non-SMTP connection options. But its internals are even wonkier, like Exchange and Outlook not supporting HTML Email (no, really, MAPI.DLL crashes on HTML email. If you send/receive HTML email it's stored as HTML wrapped in RTF, and unwrapped when sent elsewhere)
Really, I do.
In particular I like:
- that ASN.1 is generic, not specific to a given encoding rules (compare to XDR, which is both a syntax and a codec specification)
- that ASN.1 lets you get quite formal if you want to in your specifications
For example, RFC 5280 is the base PKIX spec, and if you look at RFCs 5911 and 5912 you'll see the same types (and those of other PKIX-related RFCs) with more formalisms. I use those formalisms in the ASN.1 tooling I maintain to implement a recursive, one-shot codec for certificates in all their glory.
- that ASN.1 has been through the whole evolution of "hey, TLV rules are all you need and you get extensibility for free!!1!" through "oh no, no that's not quite right is it" through "we should add extensibility functionality" and "hmm, tags should not really have to appear in modules, so let's add AUTOMATIC tagging" and "well, let's support lots of encoding rules, like non-TLV binary ones (PER, OER) and XML and JSON!".
Protocol Buffers is still stuck on TLV, all done badly by comparison to BER/DER.
(However, like many other formats (including JSON, XML, etc), ASN.1 can be badly used.)
:) Glad to see someone else who's gone down this road as well.
If it was being used in homogenous environments the way protocol buffers typically are, where the schemas are usually more reasonable and both read and write side are owned by the same entity, it might not have gotten such a bad rap...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronautical_Telecommunication...
(i worked in telecommunications when ASN.1 was common thing)
For example, when I inherited a public key signature system (mainly retrieving certificates and feeding them to cryptographic primitives and downloading and checking certificate revocation lists) everything troublesome was left by dismissed consultants; there were libraries for dealing with ASN.1 and I only had to educate myself about the different messages and their structure, like with any other standard protocol.
The various WIP features, and switching focus of what might bring more people into the ecosystem, have given away to other languages.
Even C#, Java and C++ have gotten many of features that were only available in D as Andrei Alexandrescu's book came out in 2011.
I imagine that the scope of its uses has shrunk as other languages caught up, and I don't think it's necessarily a good language for general enterprise stuff (unless you're dealing with C++), but for new projects it's still valid IMO. I think that the biggest field it could be used in is probably games too, especially if you're already writing a new engine from scratch. You could start with the GC and then ease off of it as the project develops in order to speed up development, for example. And D could always add newer features again too, tbh.
Another thing that Java and C# got to do since 2011, is that AOT is also part of the ecosystem and free of charge (Java has had commercial compilers for a while), so not even a native binary is an advantage as you imagine.
First D has to finish what is already there in features that are almost done but not quite.
Do you have any other ideas about how D could stand out again?
That is why outside startups selling a specific product, most IT departments are polyglot.
For D to stand out, there must be a Rails, Docker like framework, something, that is getting such a buzz that makes early adopters want to go play with D.
However I don't see it happening on LLM age, where at a whim of a prompt thoughts can be generated in whatever language, which is only a transition step until we start having agent runtimes.
C++ modules, well, they should have more closely copied D modules!
Worse is better approach tends to always win.
And still today, the first thought that comes to mind when I think D is "that language with proprietary compilers", even though there has apparently been some movement on that front? Not really worth looking into now that we have Go as an excellent GC'd compiled language and Rust as an excellent C++ replacement.
Having two different languages for those purposes seems like a better idea anyway than having one "optionally managed" language. I can't even imagine how that could possibly work in a way that doesn't just fragment the community.
I honestly think if Walter Bright (or anyone within D) invested in having a serious web framework for D even if its not part of the standard library, it could be worth its weight in gold. Right now there's only Vibe.d that stands out but I have not seen it grow very much since its inception, its very slow moving. Give me a feature rich web framework in D comparable to Django or Rails and all my side projects will shift to D. The real issue is it needs to be batteries included since D does not have dozens of OOTB libraries to fill in gaps with.
Look at Go as an example, built-in HTTP server library, production ready, its not ultra fancy but it does the work.
There are plenty of people who aren't interested in using languages with proprietary toolchains. Those people typically don't use C#. The people who don't mind proprietary toolchains typically write software for an environment where D isn't relevant, such as .NET or the Apple world.
One of the issues I've seen in the community is just that there aren't enough people in the community with enough interest and enough spare time to spend on a large project. Everyone in the core team is focused on working on the actual language (and day-jobs), while everyone else is doing their own sort of thing.
From your profile you seem to have a lot of experience in the field and in software in general, so I'd like to ask you if you have any other advice for getting the language un-stuck, especially with regards to the personnel issues. I think I'd like to take up your proposal for a web framework as well, but I don't really have any knowledge of web programming beyond the basics. Do you have any advice on where to start or what features/use case would be best as well?
Currently we need to get a stackless coroutine into the language, actors for windowing event handling, reference counting and a better escape analysis story to make the experience really nice.
This work is not scheduled for PhobosV3 but a subset such as a web client with an event loop may be.
Lately I've been working on some exception handling improvements and start on the escape analysis DFA (but not on the escape analysis itself). So the work is progressing. Stackless coroutine proposal needs editing, but it is intended to be done at the start of next year for approval process.
I think you're really overstepping with AI is eaten by python. I can imagine an AI stack with out python llama.cpp (for inference not training... isn't completely that, but most of the core functionality is not python, and not-GCd at all), I can not imagine an AI stack with out CUDA + C++. Even the premier python tools (pytorch, vllm) would be non-functional with out these tools.
While some very common interfaces to AI require a GC'd language I think if you deleted the non-GC parts you'd be completely stuck and have years of digging your self out, but if you deleted the 'GC' parts you can end up with a usable thing in very short order.
Thus now you can use PTX directly from Python, and with the new cu Tiles approach, you can write CUDA kernels in a Python subset.
Many of these tools get combined because that is what is already there, and the large majority of us don't want, or has the resources, to spend bootstrapting a whole new world.
Until there is some monetary advantage in doing so.
Wait so are you, or are you not, saying that a GC-less D program can use libraries written with the assumption that there's a GC? The statement "there's nothing stopping [you] from not using the GC" implies that all libraries work with D-without-GC, otherwise the lack of libraries written for D-without-GC would be stopping you from not using the GC
It's not all or nothing with the GC, as I explained in another reply. There are many libraries that use the GC, many that don't. If you're writing code with the assumption that you'll just be plugging together libraries to do all the heavy lifting, D may not be the right language for you. There is a definite DIY hacker mentality in the community. Flexibility in attitude and approach are rewarded.
Something else to consider is that the GC is often more useful for high level code while manual memory management is more useful for low level code. This is natural because you can always use non-GC (e.g. C) libraries from GC, but (as you point out) not necessarily the other way around. That's how the language is supposed to be used.
You can use the GC for a GUI or some other loose UI thing and drop down to tighter C style code for other things. The benefit is that you can do this in one language as opposed to using e.g. Python + C++. Debugging software written in a mixture of languages like this can be a nightmare. Maybe this feature is useful for you, maybe not. All depends on what you're trying to do.
It looks like you work in a ton of different domains. I think based on what I've written in response to you so far, it should be easy to see that D is likely a good fit for some things you work on and a bad fit for others. I don't see what the problem is.
The D community is full of really nice and interesting people who are fun to interact with. It's also got a smaller number of people who complain loudly about the GC. This latter contingency of people is perceived as being maybe a bit frustrating and unreasonable.
I don't care whether you check D out or not. But your initial foray into this thread was to cast shade on D by mentioning issues with proprietary compilers (hasn't been a thing in years), and insinuating that the community was fractured because of the GC. Since you clearly don't know that much about the language and have no vested interest in it, why not leave well enough alone instead of muddying the waters with misleading and biased commentary?
That's an interesting fantasy you have constructed. You should try listening to the people who actually use it.
You have a point, but it is not worth the drama. D's biggest problem comes from the strong opinions of people that have not tried using it.
Stop making excuses or expecting others to do your work for you.
Nothing is preventing you.
Unfortunely those that cry about GCs are still quite vocal, at least we can now throw Rust into their way.
> There are a lot of loud people in the D community who freak out and whine about the GC, and there are plenty more quiet ones who are happily getting things done without making much noise
This sounds like an admission that the community is fractured, except with a weirdly judgemental tone towards those who use D without a GC?
"Are you saying that if I'm using Rust in the Linux kernel, I can use any Rust library, including ones written with the assumption they will be running in userspace? If not, how does that not fracture the community?"
"Are you saying that if I'm using C++ in an embedded environment without runtime type information and exceptions, I can use any C++ library, including ones written with the assumption they can use RTTI/exceptions? If not, how does that not fracture the community?"
You can make this argument about a lot of languages and particular subsets/restrictions on them that are needed in specific circumstances. If you need to write GC-free code in D you can do it. Yes, it restricts what parts of the library ecosystem you can use, but that's not different from any other langauge that has wide adoption in a wide variety of applications. It turns out that in reality most applications don't need to be GC-free (the massive preponderance of GC languages is indicative of this) and GC makes them much easier and safer to write.
I think most people in the D community are tired of people (especially outsiders) constantly rehashing discussions about GC. It was a much more salient topic before the core language supported no-GC mode, but now that it does it's up to individuals to decide what the cost/benefit analysis is for writing GC vs no-GC code (including the availability of third-party libraries in each mode).
> If you need to write GC-free code in D you can do it.
This seems correct, with the emphasis. Plenty of people make it sound like the GC in D is no problem because it's optional, so if you don't want GC you can just write D without a GC. It's a bit like saying that the stdlib in Rust is no problem because you can just use no_std, or that exceptions in C++ is no problem because you can just use -fno-exceptions. All these things are naïve for the same reason; it locks you out of most of the ecosystem.
That's not what I'm saying, and who cares if it's fractured or not? Why should that influence your decision making?
There are people who complain loudly about the GC, and then there are lots of other people who do not complain loudly and also use D in many different interesting ways. Some use the GC, some don't. People get hyper fixated on the GC, but it isn't the only thing going on in the language.
Because, if I want to write code in D without the GC, it impacts me negatively if I can't use most of the libraries created by the community.
I will say there are a larger and larger number of no-GC libraries. Phobos is getting an overhaul which is going to seriously reduce the amount that the GC is used.
It is probably also worth reflecting for a moment why the GC is causing problems for you. If you're doing something where you need some hard-ish realtime guarantee, bear in mind that the GC only collects when you allocate.
It's also possible to roll your own D runtime. I believe people have done things like replace the GC with allocators. The interface to the GC is not unduly complicated. It may be possible to come up with a creative solution to your problem.
I'm happy with C++ and Rust for those tasks. For other tasks where I want a GC, I'm perfectly happy with some combination of Go, Python and Typescript. I'm realistically never going to look into D.
If you understand how it's hooked into, it's very easy to work with. There is only one area of the language related to closure context creation that can be unexpected.
But that's only the reference compiler, DMD. The other two compilers were fully open source (including gcc, which includes D) before that.
Fully disagree on your position that having all possibilities with one language is bad. When you have a nice language, it's nice to write with it for all things.
I rather give that to languages like C# with Native AOT, or Swift (see chapter 5 of GC Handbook).
D only lacks someone like Google to push it into mainstream no matter what, like Go got to benefit from Docker and Kubernetes.
LegacyFlags2 ::= INTEGER (0 | 2 ^ 4..8) -- as in the article
LegacyFlags2 ::= INTEGER (0) -- only a single value allowed
So I threw a bunch of semi-related ramblings together and I'm daring to call it a blog post.
Sorry in advance since I will admit it's not the greatest quality, but it's really not easy to talk about so much with such brevity (especially since I've already forgot a ton of stuff I wanted to talk about more deeply :( )