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Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by aeon_ai on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @11:01AM (#45348055)
For those who are interested in origins, a Coinbase sponsored protocol.

With Stripe moving into the space heavily and looking to lock things up in "Stripe-land", I think having an open protocol is great.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by kreetx on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @11:32AM (#45348479)
It's not the shape of the API payload that is the problem, is it? Few banks have a REST API for payments is the issue IMO.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by aeon_ai on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @11:47AM (#45348704)
The nature of the transaction itself is fundamentally different in a paygated/trustless API request.

This is different from an API schema of a /payments/ endpoint being segregated from the actual resource that is being paid for.

In this model, the payment is the cost of entry for the resource request itself. It's not as directly applicable to all payment scenarios, but enables a new class of transaction that is effectively pay-per-request.

It's worth noting that this protocol is primarily supported by Coinbase today -- You'd be using USDC on the Base network (Layer 2 on top of Ethereum). However, the protocol itself is opening meaning anyone can self-host the same mechanics on any network, with any token/crypto asset.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by subscribed on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @12:04PM (#45348926)
There are modern banks-connected (including PBs) finance firms that offer modern protocols and can facilitate payments quickly and nicely (offering both custodial And non-custodial services).

I support one of the similar projects in my organisation and I can't wait for golive.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by Qworg on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @01:38PM (#45350317)
FIS is just waiting for them to pay $250k/enabled API call to make it happen...
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by cornholio on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @02:06PM (#45350689)
A truly open payment protocol should handle any currency (not force you to adopt crypto coins) and would leave it to the merchant and buyer to agree on their settlement method or intermediary, the cancelation and dispute policy etc.

It's entirely possible then that some options would be available, for example in SEPA, that offer instant and irreversible settlement at zero cost.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by __erik on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @02:26PM (#45350933)
(x402 author here) Thats actually exactly what the intention with x402 is. Merchants express to the buyer multiple ways that they accept payment and the buyer chooses the one they prefer. As of right now stablecoins on various crypto rails are the major form (largely because they're the easiest to start with from a development standpoint), but as Cloudflare indicated in their blogpost, they're proposing a scheme that uses deferred payment via credit card or ACH https://blog.cloudflare.com/x402/.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by lucasverra on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @03:28PM (#45351608)
Thanks for stopping by.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by contingencies on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @04:46PM (#45352534)
Hi Erik. Frankly, I wonder if this is an elaborate joke since there are some serious concerns in terms of CVP ("wait two seconds and retry"), in terms of gatekeeping potential nobody will sleepwalk in to ("we solve two the second wait with our CoinbaseCoin, get an enterprise subscription!"), or in terms of the inherent lack of openness in HTTP these days (client/server, HTTPS identity chains, DNS, gatekeepers like CloudFlare). For thoughts on a more open protocol without these drawbacks see https://raw.githubusercontent.com/globalcitizen/ifex-protoco... Sincerely, architect of a predecessor exchange (founder asked me not to continue work on open protocols).
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by immibis on Tuesday September 23, 2025 @02:55PM (#45351263)
How would you make it open and decentralized without crypto? I mean, you say it's only open if it supports all currencies, but I say it's only open if it supports all users and use cases, and that's a thing that non-crypto currencies don't do (except for Liberty Reserve, which got shut down by the government for precisely this reason). Like, it's not really open if they have the option to require you to have a Wells Fargo account. We're not falling for the HTTP Cloudflare-great-firewall trick again, I hope.

And for crypto payments they already don't need this because they can use the de-facto-standard Metamask API, at least for Ethereum-compatible blockchains.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by cornholio on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @04:52AM (#45357850)
Open just means the implementers of the protocol can select the settlement methods. Cryptocurrency allows in band settlement, but there is nothing wrong in principle with trusting finance institutions that the money really reached your account. So the settlement can be done out of band, using non-blockchain methods by mutually trusted financial institutions, just like credit card payments. It's cheaper, faster, simpler etc.

It's an economic and business problem, not a technical one: the incumbents earn massive fees and have very little incentive to innovate, while the disruptors can't reach the minimum critical mass they require to get rid of the damn credit cards (aka static passwords you need to disclose on the internet).

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @08:02AM (#45359142)
> in SEPA, that offer instant and irreversible settlement at zero cost.

Note that SEPA is 100% not reversible. In fact, if you look at the scheme terms is absurdly reversible. There's a 8 week no questions asked refund window, so (for instance) one could pay your mortgage with SEPA and then automatically undebit their account up to 8 weeks later.

(Don't do this unless you're happy losing your property, not financial advice).

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by cornholio on Thursday September 25, 2025 @06:47AM (#45371355)
The customer can ask their bank anything, but the SEPA terms allow reversal for very strict scenarios, only if the payment was erroneous, it was duplicated by a human or technical errors, the wrong amount was sent etc. So the bank will refuse demands based on consumer protection reasons, they correctly fulfilled the customer request to send the money and further disputes are handled privately.

You might be referring to SEPA direct debit, which can be reversed unilaterally by the client at any point during the 8 weeks. These are payments initiated by the merchant, using an already established direct debit channel.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:58AM (#45372711)
Yeah, I was referring to SEPA direct debit (consumer), rather than the business one which has the terms you describe in your first paragraph. Sepa consumer is a lot more common though.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by cornholio on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:05PM (#45374557)
What I'm saying that direct debit (the ability to authorize a merchant to draw money from your account repeatedly at a later date, for example to settle a monthly bill, comparable to giving them your credit card number) is a different payment workflow than a SEPA money transfer (initiated by the consumer), which would be presumably be used for an internet settlement protocol.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by swalsh on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @10:53AM (#45361269)
What's the difference between spending USDC and USD via a credit card? I don't get the hatred for anything crypto.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by egorfine on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:52AM (#45359069)
Given that this protocol is Coinbase sponsored, you can be sure that the whole KYC/AML bullshit is going to be applied to every transaction.

Want to read a paid message? Please upload your recent utility bill and confirm your identity with a video call. Sorry, you are not a US citizen with possession of the only subset of ID documents we support, reject.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @08:00AM (#45359128)
> Given that this protocol is Coinbase sponsored, you can be sure that the whole KYC/AML bullshit is going to be applied to every transaction.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on perspective), this is the law basically everywhere where people have money. Like, you can avoid KYC/AML checks by using small operators, but as they get larger they'll have to introduce them or be regulated out of existence.

If you really hate this (which is a valid position that I mostly don't share) then you should either run for elected office or sponsor/help other people to do this, as that's the only way to change the law.

Fundamentally, as the internet ends up mapping to just society, it will be a reflection of society, much of which is driven by government regulation.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by egorfine on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @08:04AM (#45359162)
Fortunately crypto exists. Fortunately, it is perfectly usable in real world while avoiding most of the KYC/AML crap.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @09:21AM (#45359949)
Honestly, probably not for long. Like, basically any Western headquartered crypto company will have (at least in theory) KYC/AML checks.

And I'm not sure how you plan to get your crypto into fiat without hitting a bank/financial institution which will have these checks.

Like, this is part of society (for some good and some bad reasons, like a lot of other things).

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by egorfine on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @09:34AM (#45360120)
This is one of the US political instruments, and not part of the society. Money existed for like 4,000 years before KYC/AML, and the society was just fine in regards to money.
Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:29AM (#45370846)
> This is one of the US political instruments, and not part of the society. Money existed for like 4,000 years before KYC/AML, and the society was just fine in regards to money.

I wish you the very best of luck in colonising mars, as this is basically the only way you'll avoid KYC/AML in the long-term.

More seriously, I'd probably start making provisions for taxation of your crypto as it would really suck to have that happen unexpectedly (and it will, as governments start forcing financial/crypto institutions to report to them).

> Money existed for like 4,000 years before KYC/AML, and the society was just fine in regards to money.

As an aside, money is relatively recent, debt is the thing that's existed for much longer. And unfortunately, society determines what is important, and apparently society (well actually the US government) has decided that KYC etc matters to society.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by egorfine on Thursday September 25, 2025 @06:00AM (#45371018)
> colonising mars, as this is basically the only way you'll avoid KYC/AML

Not really.

As it is customary with financial law, it only exists to make hard working people suffer, while leaving all the ways for criminal enterprises to continue business. Being Ukrainian person I can tell you with confidence that legalizing personal 1000 USDT made on a freelance job is harder than laundering $1m made by corruption by government officials.

Also, KYC/AML is not binary, it's a scale. I have no problem KYCing at my local Polish bank and sending my crypto transactions to my bank account and they are fine with it as well as long as they know who I am.

> in the long-term.

True. Operating a legitimate (!) clear business, say, in Singapore remotely from Ukraine was a routine thing like ten years ago and became almost impossible in 2020s - specifically due to American regulatory pressure. Again, we're talking about lawful businesses. Criminal enterprises have no problems opening bank accounts anywhere they want.

> (well actually the US government) has decided that KYC etc matters to

...American political interests. KYC/AML is detrimental to economic growth and harmful to the society as been demonstrated time and again.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @10:00AM (#45372730)
> True. Operating a legitimate (!) clear business, say, in Singapore remotely from Ukraine was a routine thing like ten years ago and became almost impossible in 2020s - specifically due to American regulatory pressure. Again, we're talking about lawful businesses. Criminal enterprises have no problems opening bank accounts anywhere they want.

Can you give me some more details on this? My understanding was that only the sanctioned parts of Ukraine were impacted by recent changes, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Re:x402 — An open protocol for internet-native payments by egorfine on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:34PM (#45377838)
> only the sanctioned parts of Ukraine were impacted

First of all, banks couldn't care less about telling apart different species of Ukrainian people. Second, for any bank in the world it's a matter of cost of finmonitoring. And for each and every customer the cost of compliance is always higher than the profit from this person's transaction. Therefore, banks have strong incentive to refuse service for any person that is remotely unordinary. Hence "debanking": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debanking