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Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by thinkingtoilet on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:40AM (#45015068)
I agree with some of what you said, but doing it without warning seems unnecessarily harsh. This quote from the article is pretty ripe though:

“I was always drawn to the mountains when I was traveling around the country and, to be honest, it was affordable,” she said. “It was off grid. It had a structure. It was away from people. The view is incredible. There’s climbing, hiking. It was somewhere I could afford and have land in Colorado.”

I wanted to live off the grid, but not that off the grid.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by darth_avocado on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:43AM (#45015111)
Not having reliable utilities comes with the territory. If you want to live off grid, you need backups of backups. And a reliable water source is one of them.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by bluGill on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:57PM (#45015978)
There is every reason to think a town water system is reliable and safe. They were not using enough water to matter to the town, and providing the town a nice source of income.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by CodingJeebus on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:43AM (#45015100)
I don't agree with how the city made the decision either. But the politics is pretty simple: you are going to support the interests of the people who voted for you over those who have no vote. And those who have no vote in this matter chose to have no vote by living outside of the city.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by rbanffy on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:18PM (#45015506)
> those who have no vote

They are residents of some governance unit and, therefore, vote somewhere. Is that possible to have no right to vote because you live in the wrong place?

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by HankStallone on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:36PM (#45015721)
I live a couple miles outside the borders of a town, so I don't get to vote in town elections, just county and township elections. However, I do all my shopping in town, use the town library, drive on the town's roads, belong to some organizations that do charitable work in town, etc. It's fair to say that I'm affected by town politics in a lot of ways, but I don't get in a say in those politics.

Sometimes the lines about what affects you are blurry, but the question of whether you get a vote isn't: you do or you don't. Maybe rural people should get a partial vote in town affairs, 3/5 or something like that.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by jamiek88 on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:55PM (#45015949)
Do you pay town taxes? Or do you avoid paying those town taxes and still lament your lack of vote?
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by HankStallone on Monday August 25, 2025 @01:53PM (#45016664)
I don't lament my lack of a vote; I understand that it's an imperfect system.

As for whether I pay town taxes, it depends which ones you mean. Nothing on my property tax bill goes directly to the town's coffers for things like the parks and garbage pickup. But I pay the town sales tax every time I go shopping. I pay the town's sizable hotel and restaurant tax every time I go out to eat. I'm pretty sure the town gets some downstream fraction of the gas tax I pay every time I fill up.

Of course, all those taxes are voluntary in the sense that I could drive further to a different town. So does that qualify as "taxation without representation"? The Founders would probably say so, but it doesn't bother me enough to get chuffed about; I'm just explaining it for people who haven't experienced it.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by rbanffy on Monday August 25, 2025 @03:30PM (#45017935)
Wouldn't this kind of reasoning - no taxes, no votes - end up making anyone who doesn't pay taxes, by whatever means, unable to participate in democratic governance?

I'm asking for a couple billionaires.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by Jensson on Monday August 25, 2025 @06:08PM (#45019702)
> I'm asking for a couple billionaires.

Their companies pay taxes, so no that argument doesn't work. Every company pays some form of employee taxes and so on, there is no way to get around that.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by rbanffy on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @12:24PM (#45028714)
> Every company pays some form of employee taxes

Employees pay those. And companies don't vote (they need to bribe politicians through donations).

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by CodingJeebus on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:24PM (#45015579)
> Is that possible to have no right to vote because you live in the wrong place?

You don't have the right to vote in a city that you do not live in, and the water system is controlled by the city in this case. I assume they can vote for county offices, and the county is now determining how best they can serve their residents now that the city is unable to.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by thinkingtoilet on Monday August 25, 2025 @01:23PM (#45016296)
Obviously. The point is cutting off water with no warning in the hottest month of the year is unnecessary cruel. At least give people a few weeks to start accounting for the change.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by ghaff on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:47AM (#45015152)
At least Internet/communications seems to increasingly have other options but some other largely essential utilities often don't.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by darth_avocado on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:16PM (#45015480)
They are available, just not at the price point a lot of off the grid folks want to pay.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by rbanffy on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:19PM (#45015523)
And the article mentions well sharing is illegal, so pooling resources to dig a single well is not possible.

Why is well sharing illegal?

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by CodingJeebus on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:52AM (#45015188)
And sometimes, the private water company that services the county absolutely gouges customers because they're private and can get away with it. I saw this in Texas, where a guy I knew bought a house just outside the city limits to avoid taxes and then his water bill tripled compared to when he was on city water.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by ghaff on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:59AM (#45015269)
I'm not sure that, where I live, there's a lot of property outside of town/city limits. My water is about $200/year but I use very little outside water.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by jimnotgym on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:15PM (#45015460)
In the UK, because we are the kind of communist nightmare that terrifies the USA, there is no place outside the city that pays no property tax. Problem solved
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by ghaff on Monday August 25, 2025 @03:36PM (#45018018)
While there are unincorporated areas in the US, I'm not sure no property taxes are a given even in those areas. I live in an incorporated town and definitely pay property taxes and get a variety of town services but do need to handle my own sewer and trash (though I get water and electricity along with fire/police/etc. services as well as public schools as relevant).

In fact, I'm not sure the degree to which just bowing out of public schooling is even allowed given that I think that's over half of my town's budget.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by nemomarx on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:20PM (#45015538)
If you don't buy in bulk you'll spend more. Isn't that just markets?
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by CodingJeebus on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:28PM (#45015619)
If you have captive customers and a product with relatively inelastic pricing and no competition, you can basically do whatever you want. That's also just markets
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by shadowpho on Monday August 25, 2025 @02:02PM (#45016791)
>because they're private and can get away with it.

Also because it’s highest cost due to less populated area

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by MangoToupe on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:57AM (#45015236)
I grew up drinking from well water. People are seriously overestimating the amount that certain services need to be provided by a municipality.

Arguably, the issue here is that we're going to need to deal with the fact that many americans are bad at assessing personal risk. Living in the country is in fact expensive—there are fewer people to amortize costs across, especially in societies that don't have market-based housing (which is arguably why country living is considered cheaper). Water and electricity might be the easiest ways to see this, but it's stuff like "access to a hospital" that causes the most harm—a largely invisible cost until you actually need a hospital (or emergency response, or clearing roads from snow, access to postal delivery, etc etc....). At least you'll notice immediately if you don't have water.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by CodingJeebus on Monday August 25, 2025 @11:58AM (#45015259)
> I grew up drinking from well water. People are seriously overestimating the amount that certain services need to be provided by a municipality.

The article addresses this. In this part of CO, wells can cost $25k to drill without any guarantee of hitting water. It's not a panacea for these people.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by jrgaston on Monday August 25, 2025 @12:49PM (#45015868)
It’s not just Colorado. Used to live in rural northern California and digging a $25k well (typical price I was quoted) came with no guarantee that water would be found.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by mothballed on Monday August 25, 2025 @01:24PM (#45016313)
$25k is extremely cheap for a well. In my area of Arizona it is common to do well shares, several properties will chip in to drill a $50k-$100k well system, but the cost may be closer to $5k-10K per family.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by stockresearcher on Monday August 25, 2025 @06:22PM (#45019848)
How deep is the typical well, and is that the primary driver of the cost?

I’m east of the Mississippi and my well is 200 feet deep. But this aquifer is fully allocated; all the new construction has to go to a different aquifer with a typical well depth of 700 feet. Once that is fully allocated, I think there is another one at around 1100 feet.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by mothballed on Monday August 25, 2025 @07:21PM (#45020407)
The depths are 600-700ft.

The price at that depth is dominated by the per foot cost. But inside the per-foot cost is the licensing, regulatory, casing compliance, and permitting compliance.

It's about $50/ft just to drill. After that is electric, the pump, the pressure tanks, burying pipe to enough houses to make each share cheap enough, and the legal cost of setting up a well share.

If you just wanted a well for your own property and merely put a spigot powered by a generator right next to it, you might be able to get away with $35k to start with. If you are looking to do a well share so that it becomes more economically feasible to split costs, I think it would be minimum $50k.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by stockresearcher on Monday August 25, 2025 @08:09PM (#45020732)
Thanks. Around me I think it would be closer to $15-20k including all the equipment. Permitting is legally capped at $100 and there are about 15 or 20 businesses within 50 miles that do it, so competition abounds.
Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by MangoToupe on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @10:52AM (#45027389)
> The article addresses this. In this part of CO, wells can cost $25k to drill without any guarantee of hitting water. It's not a panacea for these people.

Yes, but that's covered by my second part that americans are bad at evaluating risk (many humans are I imagine, I'm just trying to be narrow in my assessment). You don't get much more "on grid" than relying on a municipal water supply.

Re:Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county w... by ahmeneeroe-v2 on Monday August 25, 2025 @01:26PM (#45016338)
This is a disingenuous argument. Of course they weren't choosing to live with no human contact whatsoever.

Besides that, human psychology is such that these people probably couldn't afford anything else and then back-justified their constraints as "drawn to the mountains for hiking and the views".