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Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by davidlumley on Monday September 10, 2012 @01:14AM (#4498409)
The most confusing thing for me, is that this _isn't_ Stack Overflow - it's Programmers. While SO is meant to have objectively correct answers, and that's why they are so quick to close threads, Programmers is meant to be more open and allow more general questions.
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by wpietri on Monday September 10, 2012 @01:59AM (#4498512)
Yep. There was a question on Programmers that was something like "What is the good/bad decision you made in your mid-20s about your career". There were a ton of great answers, and I was so proud of my heavily upvoted answer that I linked it on my website. Only to get a note a couple of months later that the link was 404ing.

I looked, and guess what: Not only did the mods close it out of some insane sense of tidiness, and not only did they hide it from normal viewing; they apparently deleted it entirely. All our writing, all the good comments, all the voting: gone forever, without warning or apparent recourse.

So fuck them and their petty, arrogant bureaucracy. I will never write an answer for them again.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by bragh on Monday September 10, 2012 @02:13AM (#4498551)
There was a discussion on stackexchange about Java books or such that was always linked to in case of duplicate questions. Then it got entirely deleted and so all the links to it from dupes got worthless too - and yet the dupes remained and still point to the 404 page.
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by notimetorelax on Monday September 10, 2012 @02:32AM (#4498592)
Mods are getting too trigger happy? In fairness if you give random "trusted" strangers power to delete anything they deem inappropriate they will start abusing their power, that's in human nature.
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by simonh on Monday September 10, 2012 @08:13AM (#4499330)
But to them they're not abusing it, they're just interpreting the rules very literally and strictly.

The problem is that any gameified system, like a karma or reputation system, attracts people good at interpreting rules strictly and finding efficient ways to exploit them. So you're actually selecting for literalist rules lawyers.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by wpietri on Monday September 10, 2012 @12:43PM (#4500672)
So true.

That's why I consider this the most brilliant bit of Wikipedia's policies: "If a rule prevents you from improving Wikipedia, ignore it." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules

There's a great discussion of that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_%22Ignore_all_ru...

Last time this blew up on HN, some of the principals of SO turned up here, as did a bunch of mods. They were mostly unable to discuss the issues in terms of serving the audience; they just kept falling back on The Rules. An attitude, I'm sure, which quickly drove off anybody with common sense. So now they have achieved glorious groupthink: everybody they normally talk to agrees with them about The Rules.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by S4M on Monday September 10, 2012 @08:56AM (#4499484)
Apart from giving them a feel of a power, what does the fact of closing a thread (whether legitimately or not) give to the mods? Do they have some karma incentive to do so?
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by yrizos on Monday September 10, 2012 @05:33PM (#4502380)
There's no incentive in closing a question, other than helping the site reach it's goals, and the primary goal for any Stack Exchange site is useful, not interesting or popular (not that they are mutually exclusive, but also not to be confused).

This specific question was turning into crap fast, with answers like "Sounds like your friend is a bit of a dick. Noone wants to work for him." (since deleted). Closing it only prevents further answers, as it was obvious they were deteriorating. Still, the closure and any closure, is reversible, people always have the choice to vote to re-open if they feel the closure wasn't justified.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by gizzlon on Monday September 10, 2012 @03:41AM (#4498734)
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by wpietri on Monday September 10, 2012 @12:37PM (#4500645)
That would be great. If somebody has old mirrors, please let me know or mention it here.
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by gizzlon on Tuesday September 11, 2012 @05:50AM (#4504567)
It would be pretty simple to mirror selected articles.

For example: If you're worried a page will disappear, go to foo.com and paste the address. If it does disappear, you can go back to foo.com and retrieve the content, link to foo.com instead etc..

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by ollysb on Monday September 10, 2012 @04:01AM (#4498782)
Who exactly does closing questions benefit? I can't remember the last time I went to stackoverflow to search for an answer. I always find the pages through a google search. Google does a great job of finding me relevant material on stackoverflow and the voting mechanisms on stackoverflow do a great job of letting me know which content the community value.

In the early days of stackoverflow I seem to recall they had a policy of keeping similar or even duplicate questions. The reasoning was that the extra interpretations of the same question made it easier to find them in a google search. What they have now seems entirely the opposite, content being removed to the point where it doesn't exist in any form. I don't really care if someone thinks a piece of content is on topic or relevant, if it isn't relevant to me I just won't look at it.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 10, 2012 @09:41AM (#4499691)
Yeah, I cannot recollect getting a useful answer there. Google rarely links to it; the links are often questions without answers (I searched for my question terms after all, not knowing the answer).

And why delete anything? Surely they are not running out of space. I'll volunteer $100 so they can buy another Terabyte to store those deleted discussions.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by bunderbunder on Monday September 10, 2012 @10:31AM (#4499953)
My pet theory is that it's something I've come to think of as the "WELL effect". Named for the famous online community which I was a member of for approximately one month in the early 2000s, and which is still talking itself up for how vibrant it was 20 years ago but hasn't been vibrant for any time during this century.

It works like this: The oldsters perceive that they enjoy a certain elite status by virtue of how long they've been there, and begin to think of themselves as the "keepers" of the community. They also develop a measure of contempt for newbies, perhaps because they (being new) want to talk about things that the oldsters have had a chance to discuss many times before. And perhaps because they (being new) represent a slightly different culture, which triggers stereotypical "kids these days" instincts.

So they begin taking measures to protect the site from junior members. A positive spin is put on it by calling it "upholding community standards", but it would be just as fair to negatively characterize it as "telling those damn kids to get off my lawn." I suppose which one you think it is depends on whether you're the one yelling or being yelled at.

Either way, the terminal point is that everyone has gone to have fun somewhere else, essentially because that's precisely what they had been told to do, and all that's left is a hoary old collection of ossified cucumbers fondly remembering how much fun they used to have and wondering where the magic went.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by wpietri on Monday September 10, 2012 @01:14PM (#4500844)
This is a brilliant explanation of the effect. Does anybody know of a forum that has some structure that will keep that from happening?
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by bunderbunder on Monday September 10, 2012 @01:20PM (#4500874)
When I joined WELL they had introduced forums that were only intended for people who joined during a specific calendar year. Presumably it was an attempt to try and counteract the effect somewhat. Personally, it just made me feel ghettoized.

At an old-fashioned web forum I used to run we toyed with the idea of closing down and archiving old threads after they reached a certain age. The idea was to try and codify our opinion that old conversations might be worth preserving for posterity, but they aren't a substitute for new conversations and shouldn't be used as an excuse to stifle them. Never actually got around to implementing it, though.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by jlarocco on Monday September 10, 2012 @01:55AM (#4498499)
Honestly, I have no idea what programmers.stackexchange.com is for.

When I found out about it, I thought it could be interesting, so I made a habit of visiting a few times a week to see what it was all about.

I stopped visiting after a few weeks because nobody knows what the point is. 90% of the interesting questions are closed as off-topic, closed because they "belong on Stack Overflow", or are closed because the answers are debatable.

It's kind of silly, really.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by bluedanieru on Monday September 10, 2012 @07:07AM (#4499177)
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/faq

It's not 'anything goes', however.

This is a close call, but I agree with the closing in that the post conflicted with the rules. It's possible it could have been worded better to avoid being closed, but even general employee retention strategies don't belong on that site.

The problem isn't that they don't allow discussion, it's that the range of topics allowed is so narrow. There are many (I've lost count) StackExchange sites, and each one has a very narrow, well-defined (but, importantly, poorly-communicated) breadth of allowable topics. And, if you get the wrong bucket it's closed and that's that.

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by wpietri on Monday September 10, 2012 @01:20PM (#4500875)
It was closed at "not constructive", which is obviously thought untrue by the hundreds of people who engaged with it. So I can't agree with the specific closing.

It is a mystery to me why a question that yields some answers that are directly about engineers and some that could apply more widely could be considered off topic. One answer explicitly cites the Joel Test. Another specifically discussed the economics of software development, and why the management behavior is pathological specifically for engineering organizations. How much more on topic does one need to be?

Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by yrizos on Monday September 10, 2012 @05:15PM (#4502295)
Hundreds of people engaging in a question is actually a very good hint that it's Not Constructive (just a hint though). Remember, Programmers and every other Stack Exchange site are about questions and answers, not discussions.
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by wpietri on Tuesday September 11, 2012 @02:49AM (#4504131)
We have deeply different ideas of what constructive means.
Re:Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs by antidoh on Monday September 10, 2012 @11:14AM (#4500194)
"There are many (I've lost count) StackExchange sites"

To me there's only one, and the answer pages sometimes look different when I get sent in from DDG or Google.

My bad, I guess.