News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by PaulHoule on Saturday August 09, 2025 @08:17PM (#44851619)
I think what people are missing is that they work sometimes and sometimes they don't work.

People think "Oh, it works better when somebody else does it" or "There must be some model that does better than the one I am using" or "If I knew how to prompt better I'd get better results" or "There must be some other agentic IDE which is better than the one I am using."

All those things might be true but they just change the odds, they don't change the fact that it works sometimes and fails other times.

For instance I asked an agent to write me a screen to display some well-typed data. It came up with something great right away that was missing some fields and had some inconsistent formatting but it fixed all those problems when I mentioned them -- all speaking the language of product managers and end users. The code quality was just great, as good as if I wrote it, maybe better.

Plenty of times it doesn't work out like that.

I was working on some code where I didn't really understand the typescript types and fed it the crazy error messages I was getting and it made a try to understand them and didn't really, I used it as a "rubber duck" over the course of a day or two and working with it I eventually came to understand what was wrong and how to fix and I got into a place that I like and when there is an error I can understand it and it can understand it too.

Sometimes it writes something that doesn't typecheck and I tell it to run tsc and fix the errors and sometimes it does a job I am proud of and other times it adds lame typeguards like

   if (x && typeof x === "object") x.someMethod()
Give it essentially the same problem, say writing tests in Java, and it might take very different approaches. One time it will use the same dependency injection framework used in other tests to inject mocks into private fields, other times it will write some a helper method to inject the mocks into private fields with introspection directly.

You might be able to somewhat tame this randomness with better techniques but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and if I just told you about the good times or just told you about the bad times it would be a very different story.

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by leptons on Saturday August 09, 2025 @09:23PM (#44851998)
>I was working on some code where I didn't really understand the typescript types and fed it the crazy error messages I was getting and it made a try to understand them and didn't really, I used it as a "rubber duck" over the course of a day or two and working with it I eventually came to understand what was wrong and how to fix and I got into a place that I like and when there is an error I can understand it and it can understand it too.

I have to wonder if you tried a simple google search and read through some docs if you couldn't have figured this out quicker than trying to coax a result out of the LLM.

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by solarkraft on Saturday August 09, 2025 @09:50PM (#44852132)
My (not GP) intuitive answer would be hell no. Typescript messages are pretty hard to google and even parse manually and the LLM suggesting multiple approaches and ways to think about the problem does seem useful. It sometimes uncovers unknown unknowns you might never find otherwise.

I have had cases in which a web search and some good old fashioned thinking have yielded better results than using an LLM, but on average I’m pretty sure the LLM has the edge.

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by PaulHoule on Saturday August 09, 2025 @10:47PM (#44852400)
Personally I think Stack Overflow and Google are 95% trash for that kind of problem.

The answers are in (i) the Typescript documentation and (ii) the documentation of libraries that I'm using. I could get lucky with a Google search and it could be worth trying, but I wouldn't expect it to work. Personally my preference is to have a language and libraries with great documentation (Python, Java, Typescript isn't too bad [1]) and really know that documentation like the back of my hand.

If I hadn't had the LLM I would have probably figured it out the same way doing experiments, I might have asked my other "rubber duck"

https://mastodon.social/@UP8/113935901671533690

A tactic I didn't use, which helps in "legacy" systems where I am stuck, is start a fresh project in the IDE and try either reproducing the problem or building a tiny system which is problem free.

I'm hesitant to say what speedup I got out of the "figuring out the types together with the LLM" but emotionally I felt supported and in the process I wrote a whole lot, like I was keeping track of the process in a notebook. I feel a lot times when I have good LLM conversations I wind up writing better code than I would otherwise, not necessarily write it faster -- it's like pair programming.

[1] The typescript docs are great for the typescript stuff, MDN is good for Javascript and Javascript's stdlib

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by leptons on Sunday August 10, 2025 @03:34PM (#44857611)
"felt emotionally supported by an LLM"

Wow. This sounds so foreign to me. Being emotionally supported by the proverbial "tin can". If that makes you happy, then I'm happy for you, I guess?

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by rediscovery on Sunday August 10, 2025 @04:13AM (#44853639)
Behavioral psychology goes a long way in explaining the weird distribution of responses to using LLMs to generate code:

"Gambling-like behavior in pigeons: ‘jackpot’ signals promote maladaptive risky choice"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-06641-x

The tech industry is actively promoting gambling addiction and the scary thing is that people are willingly walking into that trap.

Downvote all you like, or ignore this. Agency is being taken away from us, no one gets to say we didn't see it coming down the line because we did and we said something and our peers treated us like ignorant and self interested for pointing out the obvious.

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by ath3nd on Sunday August 10, 2025 @05:47AM (#44854026)
Very insightful.

You are not alone: https://rgoldfinger.com/blog/2025-07-26-claude-code-is-a-slo...

> Are we at the point of doing rain dances for these models and describing the moves as "counterintuitive and sublte"

Yes, we are. LLM cultists can downvote as much as they like, but the reality is that with all the incantations and coaxing, we not only don't see a positive effect, we see a net negative effect on the quality of our software. On the ground level of OSS we are drowning in AI generated slop: https://www.theregister.com/2025/07/15/curl_creator_mulls_ni...

On the enterprise level we are creating more and worse code, faster. In the news, we are generating more and worse and factually wrong articles, faster. In our personal lives, guided by our sycophantic LLMs assistants, we offload more and more cognitive chores, becoming dumber and dumber.

LLM-produced slop is like the plastic of text: cheap and easy to use and proliferate, and then 40 years later you realize it's everywhere in the environment and in your brain, and that it's toxic to all life.

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by jama211 on Sunday August 10, 2025 @01:38PM (#44856833)
And like plastic, a fantastic material for many jobs, it’s just has its own pros and cons
Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by ath3nd on Sunday August 10, 2025 @02:24PM (#44857161)
> And like plastic, a fantastic material for many jobs

Yes, by the same logic arsenic has many pros (and some cons, admittedly) in paint production, thorium is a not bad material for toothpaste (google it), and asbestos is just dandy for fire insulation (with some teeny tiny negatives for your lungs).

The fact that plastic is in the bloodstream of every living being and it's a strong endocrine disruptor and there is literally a garbage patch of it floating in our oceans is a small price to pay for the convenience and pleasure of drinking coca-cola from a lighter-than-glass bottle! Fantastic material indeed! What other fantastic materials are there? Lead for pipes? White phosphorus for matches?

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by jama211 on Tuesday August 12, 2025 @03:45PM (#44881025)
I’m sensing just a “hint” of bad faith wording from you here if I’m being honest with you.
Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by GreenWatermelon on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @09:12AM (#44888022)
There isn't a hint of bad faith in the Parent's comment, it's just a sarcastic tongue-in-cheek way to say that it's not really cool to poison the fuck out of ourselves just because x material is kinda nice for y.
Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by jama211 on Thursday August 14, 2025 @03:48PM (#44904809)
Well I was being polite by saying a hint, there was in fact a lot. If you can’t see it, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.
Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by jama211 on Sunday August 10, 2025 @01:41PM (#44856847)
Also in general I find developers usually overestimate the value of good code outside of mission critical systems. The true value return of spending way more time and effort to improve code quality often simply isn’t worth it from a holistic perspective.
Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by ath3nd on Sunday August 10, 2025 @02:11PM (#44857076)
> The true value return of spending way more time and effort to improve code quality often simply isn’t worth it from a holistic perspective.

Sure, if you want to do with 100 developers what 10 can do better, cheaper and faster, don't spend time on code quality. Just vibe it. More work for the experts to fix that mess later.

Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by jama211 on Tuesday August 12, 2025 @03:44PM (#44881012)
The fact that you’re so instantly dismissive of my really quite reasonable point really says more about you than anything.
Re:GPTs and Feeling Left Behind by Terr_ on Sunday August 10, 2025 @05:48AM (#44854031)
"Gambling pathologies: It's not just for end-users anymore!"™