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Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by justin66 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:21AM (#44701506)
> NASA needs an overhaul. This isn’t how I would do it, but that’s not how things work in the real world. SLS is the elephant in the room and is a complete disaster. It’s a jobs program limping along decades old technology when the commercial options are better.

It’s more accurate to say that Congress needs an overhaul. Over the years NASA administrators have pushed back on SLS to the fullest extent you’d expect, but it’s not their call how Congress allocates money.

Losing career managers, scientists and engineers isn’t going to fix any of the things you want to see fixed.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by toomuchtodo on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:34AM (#44701619)
It’s going to kill institutional knowledge and be so expensive to repair after regime change.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by monkeyelite on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:45AM (#44702153)
I think the institutional knowledge from the golden age is already gone.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by toomuchtodo on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:48AM (#44702181)
Hopefully some of the NASA folks make their way to https://www.oah.org/2025/03/04/federal-employees-oral-histor...
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by jajko on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:53AM (#44701755)
What regime change... do you think current admin will just walk away if they lose? Precedent was set 6.1.2020, and that was from the position of weak losers standing behind the gates.

Another thing is, after next 3.5 years who remains in places of real power. Yes men, asslickers, career sociopaths with 0 empathy.

Anyway, good luck with that, I sure hope I am wrong.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by toomuchtodo on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:56AM (#44701787)
I'm confident in high volatility forward looking, but not confident democracy is dead (yet).
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by segmondy on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:00AM (#44701815)
You are not wrong. I hold the exact same sentiment. The world is way more optimistic than us.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by biggc on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:24AM (#44702002)
2021, not 2020
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by BoxFour on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:33PM (#44702488)
That point might hold more weight if we were talking about someone decades younger, but he’s 80 and hasn’t exactly lived a healthful life. As far as I know, no one’s managed to beat father time yet.

Transitions of power in movements built around a cult of personality rarely keep the same momentum. There are a few exceptions, but in most of those the clear successor had their own charisma. That doesn’t appear to be the case here.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by parineum on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:46PM (#44702581)
> Precedent was set 6.1.2020

When he lost and left?

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by lukas099 on Sunday July 27, 2025 @03:22PM (#44703823)
Yeah, that’s all that happened -_-
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by daveguy on Sunday July 27, 2025 @01:22PM (#44702854)
6.1.2021* is when Trump tried to launch a coup after he lost the election. And he lost the coup too. Then he got his ass bounced under the worst approval he has ever had.

Stop trying to rewrite history for your cult leader.

* If the comment was about the mistyped 6.1.2020, that's just lame.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by Aurornis on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:20PM (#44702389)
In the case of NASA, they could stand to shed a lot of the institutional structure they’ve built up. When institutional knowledge becomes more about navigating bureaucracy than doing engineering, something needs to break.

My dream outcome would be that they shrink down the bureaucracy massively, retire a lot of the career middle managers who make sure nothing ever moves too fast and no project is allowed to run lean, and then raise pay for the remaining people to attract some of the private sector talent that could infuse some new knowledge. The few people I know with SpaceX experience are not at all happy with the work environment there, but the pay and pace of a place like NASA aren’t an option for them.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by lostlogin on Sunday July 27, 2025 @04:30PM (#44704426)
> regime change.

And the normalisation of the language of totalitarianism continues.

I don’t disagree, but it’s grim.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Sunday July 27, 2025 @04:49PM (#44704563)
Ever org I've worked for slowly became unable to innovate because of "institutional knowledge".

I think it's important to forget, to some extent, every once in a while. It forces a new traversal of the problem space, but in a modern context, with modern tools, fresh eyes, and a better understanding of what's needed. Thus we have Space X.

There are some great interviews with Jim Keller, who has a similar perspective: you need to restart every some years, to not stagnate.

From what I've seen, if you want to stamp out a young engineers creativity, start them working in a big org.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by scoreandmore on Sunday July 27, 2025 @04:56PM (#44704609)
And did you stick around to see what happens after they go full tabula rasa? I have: they fall so far behind they close up shop. The proper response is to move slowly and intentionally and use indicators. Like ‘design thinking’, with prototyping and feedback and incremental feedback, not burn shit to the ground because planning is too hard mentality. But I realize that’s what shareholders demand. And now that gov’t is being run like a business, prepare to see bankruptcies.

Fortunately other, more rational countries, will fill the gaps. They’ve just been complacent because the US was on its game for so long. Especially the ESA.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by viraptor on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:03PM (#44704664)
Entrenched ways are not the same as institutional knowledge. You can have one without the other. Some things are not written down but executed as part of common knowledge, and if you drop enough people you'll have to relearn it the hard way.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:09PM (#44704710)
> Entrenched ways are not the same as institutional knowledge.

I disagree, fundamentally. Institutional knowledge is a set of "truths" that are respected, so necessarily prune the solution space. The only way to get those pruned branches back is to disregard it, by reconsidering, and re-traversing that solution space.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by johnnyanmac on Sunday July 27, 2025 @08:06PM (#44705889)
In my eyes, institutional knowledge is figuring out what things do NOT work, not what did back then. When you lose that, you're wasting years or even decades hitting the exact same pitfalls the old guard hit once upon a time. Many truly bright minds aren't those asserting how this was the best method and then burying their heads in the sand when other ideas come out.

My time working with some of the brightest minds in my industry taught me that they aren't necessaily some visionary, nor super genius, nor even some workaholic putting 20+ hours a day into their craft (though I have met a few I would describe as such). The gap between me and them wasn't over some raw intellect. It was many times a matter of me thinking of an idea and them talking about how that was tried 5-20 years ago and why that lead down a huge rabbit hole.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Monday July 28, 2025 @01:59PM (#44713469)
> is figuring out what things do NOT work, not what did back then

Yes, this is my point. It's pruning the solution space before traversing it. The diligent approach is to temporarily disregard that knowledge, and do a quick re-exploration to test if it's still true.

> to some extent

This was put in my first comment with severe intent, that many seemed to have missed.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by johnnyanmac on Monday July 28, 2025 @02:39PM (#44713849)
In my eyes, they already traversed it and can explain why it's very similar to an old idea. They don't must see an old idea woth lipstick on it and instantly jump on it for the sake of trying something new.

As of now, this same mentality is used to push AI into everywhere. Not only is the intent bad, but the tech doesn't even work. That's not "resisting change". That's experimenting and realizing the hype was just that.

>This was put in my first comment with severe intent, that many seemed to have missed.

The comment itself definitely reveals more than a light suggestion.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Monday July 28, 2025 @03:01PM (#44714142)
> In my eyes, they already traversed it and can explain why it's very similar to an old idea.

This was precisely my point in [1]. It's fundamentally the same: a pruning of the solution space without re-traversal.

> why it's very similar to an old idea.

And, with diligence, you verify that the new context is exactly the same as the old. You do this by knowing that it might not be, in other words, you temporarily suspending your trust in that knowledge, and re-traverse it with the current context.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by johnnyanmac on Monday July 28, 2025 @03:20PM (#44714427)
>It's fundamentally the same

It's a thin line of wisdom and conservatism, but an important distinction. People in these positions work on billion dollar software, so they can't just try out every idea that comes to mind in prod. But that's exactly what tends to be proposed: big multi month initiatives, not some prototype to test over a sprint.

The important question I learned to ask was "what problem am I trying to solve". One aspect of this thin line tends to be a muddy answer to this question. When you can only suspect and make grand showings instead of showing pragmatic use case you may not in fact be iterating, but experimenting.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @04:55PM (#44728166)
> People in these positions work on billion dollar software, so they can't just try out every idea that comes to mind in prod.

Exactly, the ability to innovate ceases. Risk is most easily avoided by leaning on the existing institutional knowledge to direct new decisions even though they may be in new contexts.

> you may not in fact be iterating, but experimenting.

By definition, iteration is not innovation. Innovation is new ideas. New ideas aren't possible without experimentation, otherwise they would be known ideas.

Most large companies move from innovation to acquisition for a reason: the risk of innovation is too great for a large company to stomach.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by bluGill on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:41PM (#44704962)
Heving been there 95% of the time you just learn the hard way whp theeold timers did it that way in the first place - and most of the rest you just make a different compromise that has different tradeoffs but isn't better.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by imperfect_light on Sunday July 27, 2025 @07:30PM (#44705677)
This seems similar to the "let's just rebuild from scratch" impulse that has been tried so many times on very large complicated systems and often, although not always, fails.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by saltcured on Sunday July 27, 2025 @06:01PM (#44705115)
I think you are using a non-standard definition of institutional knowledge that begs the question in the rest of your posts.

The standard phrase "institutional knowledge" merely refers to knowledge and skills that are carried by members of the organization. This is often much more than what is formally codified into the processes and training materials. As such, it can lead to loss of capability when there is too much turnover.

You seem to be conflating it with some other kind of bureaucratic conservatism or group-think. While that is a common dysfunction of long-running organizations, I think it is an orthogonal characteristic.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @12:16PM (#44725195)
> The standard phrase "institutional knowledge" merely refers to knowledge and skills that are carried by members of the organization.

Yes, that't is my definition. But, that knowledge has very real practical effects and influence on the org. It has weight and momentum, especially when approaching new problems, or reconsidering old problems. The mechanism for that can be anywhere from "this is industry standard, lets not risk it" to "the director says we should focus on this approach".

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by supplied_demand on Sunday July 27, 2025 @04:58PM (#44704623)
== What you end up with will always be better than what you started with.==

That is quite the absolute statement. Could you share some data to back this up?

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:00PM (#44704639)
Sorry it wasn't clear enough, but I was paraphrasing Jim Keller. See the several Lex Fridman episodes with him, where he talks about it. The success with his projects would probably be the data you're looking for.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by overfeed on Sunday July 27, 2025 @06:31PM (#44705322)
> Ever org I've worked for slowly became unable to innovate

There's more to life than "innovation", but what you say tracks, I was part of an organization that became extremely innovative but went bust in the process.

> we have Space X.

Which is amazing for earth-orbit commercial launches, but doesn't move the needle for the many other things NASA concerns itself with, like research as mentioned elsewhere.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by supplied_demand on Sunday July 27, 2025 @09:59PM (#44706505)
== if you want to stamp out a young engineers creativity, start them working in a big org.==

Jim Keller’s own biography kind of dispels this notion. He worked at DEC for 16 years when he was a young engineer (24-40 years old).

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Monday July 28, 2025 @02:05PM (#44713537)
I'm not sure dot-com era DEC had much stagnation or institutional knowledge that wasn't continuously overrun, nor would it be comparable to most big orgs these days.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by supplied_demand on Monday July 28, 2025 @09:26PM (#44717914)
He worked there starting in 1982. When do you think the dot-com era started?
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @01:18PM (#44725971)
He started in a greenfield industry, the immediate pre-requisite for dot com era, then through the dot com era. There was no institutional knowledge when he started, and a good portion of it would be irrelevant when he quit. It was all new.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by supplied_demand on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @02:50PM (#44726963)
When he started at DEC in 1982, they had 67,000 employees and almost $4 billion in revenue. It seems like that type of success and size would imply some institutional knowledge. Their revenue, income, and employee count started stagnating in 1989. He worked there until 1998.

No need to keep going back and forth on this as you seem to have dug in your heels.

https://sutherla.tripod.com/infsoc/computers/dec_pl.html

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by nomel on Tuesday July 29, 2025 @03:35PM (#44727402)
It's not back a fourth as much as you think I've stated some hard black and white rule, without exceptions. I think it's generally true. In this case, is the exception DEC or Jim Keller? Would he agree? I don't know. Some large orgs run like a collection of startups, internally.

But, I don't think DEC, a company working through the beginning of computer through peak dot com era, where every aspect was doubling or completely changing every year, is a context where holding onto ideas formed in an old context was viable or possible. You would, necessarily, have to temporarily suspend your trust in the institutional knowledge, with every new problem, since the whole compute world that the institutional knowledge was built on would have shifted under you.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by JeremyNT on Sunday July 27, 2025 @11:53PM (#44707078)
But what are we even doing here? We have an entire political party that is anti science. This isn't some temporary setback, it's an ideology.

Is the future going to be completely defunding science for 4 (or 8) years and then whipsawing back to normal levels once the republicans lose power?

It seems like as long as the parties are close to popularity of each other and one party is explicitly anti science there is no way to build anything sustainable. This is no way to run a country.

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by eagerpace on Sunday July 27, 2025 @10:37AM (#44701638)
That’s a great point. I think it’s just trying to boil the ocean.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by SJC_Hacker on Sunday July 27, 2025 @12:27PM (#44702435)
> It’s more accurate to say that Congress needs an overhaul. Over the years NASA administrators have pushed back on SLS to the fullest extent you’d expect, but it’s not their call how Congress allocates money.

They don't call it the Senate Launch System for nothing

Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by vkou on Sunday July 27, 2025 @05:07PM (#44704704)
I think it's more accurate to say that our oligarchs need an overhaul. Some of the worst people who are actively working against the public are consistently ending up in positions of incredible, unchecked power.
Re:4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred re... by godelski on Sunday July 27, 2025 @06:02PM (#44705130)

  > It’s more accurate to say that Congress needs an overhaul.
It's also worth mentioning that this is a big reason NASA is so expensive. There's a lot of contracts and so NASA actually has contractors in every single state. They even brag about it[0], which should be a good hint to you that it is political. This makes is a bit of a wealth distribution system. That's either good or bad depending on your perspective and what you think the main goals are...

But there's a few programs that have these types of problems, not just NASA. IMO, there's probably more efficient ways to meet each goal, by decoupling the problem. But either way, we can't solve "the problem" unless we actually recognize what it is (and there's a lot more than what I've just mentioned)

[0] https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/nasainthe50states/