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Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by jstummbillig on Sunday July 20, 2025 @06:07AM (#44623560)
Quality has improved across many dimensions in nearly every domain I’m familiar with. In fact, I’d argue there are very few products or services that couldn’t be made today to a higher standard than at any point in the past, if we chose to prioritize that.

But what’s often mistaken for a decline in quality is really a shift in priorities: toward affordability, efficiency, and accessibility. And that’s fantastic. Products that were once expensive and exclusive are now available, at good-enough quality, to billions more people around the world.

Yes, that trade-off can mean shorter lifespans or less repairability. But on balance, widening access is a moral win, and one made possible by the very progress the article seems to mourn.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by djfivyvusn on Sunday July 20, 2025 @06:32AM (#44623726)
I'm not convinced the widening access to American consumerism is a moral win. The amount of fossil fuels we're dependent on as a species is obscene. I worry for our children. There is no offramp, only growth.
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by panick21_ on Sunday July 20, 2025 @06:41AM (#44623798)
This is one of these philosophies that I hate more then almost any other.

The idea that is bad that poor Indian and Chinese people now have access to anything from clean water to planes is absurd. You can sit there in your luxury house and cry about consumer culture but for millions of people its basic stuff that they have access to for the first time.

And in Europe, despite increasing quality of live, both total energy consumption and fossil fuel consumption is going down.

Now part of this is export of emissions to China but China own growth explains the majority of it.

Continued growth is good, and only continued growth and better technology will get humanity off fossil fuels.

Fossil fuels have been a net good for society and still are!

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by myaccountonhn on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:19AM (#44624071)
The reason it's seen as bad is because there are not enough natural resources to sustain such a consumption, and many of these countries (esp India) will practically become unhabitable if global warming continues like it does. There are very few signs that technology will be able to fix this.

No one is against clean access to water...

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by amelius on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:57AM (#44624329)
The real villain here is advertising, which pushes us to always want more than we need.
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by pas on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:40AM (#44624205)
there are of course more than enough "natural resources" to sustain such consumption, the problem is paradoxically the opposite, too much easy to extract shit that we then emit into our own environment

the fix is also not complicated (remove GHG from the air, remove endocrine disruptors from the food cycle, etc.)

the costs are high though, but not that high, compared to - for example - the famines of past

but as population will peak - at least for now - and as we continue to ramp up renewable energy generation these problems are not insurmountable in any sense

...

places affected by storms and extreme heat/cold days need better infrastructure, but since urbanization continues to drive people to cities (as it did for the last few hundreds of years) these places need new and better infrastructure anyway!

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by simgt on Sunday July 20, 2025 @09:14AM (#44624930)
> the fix is also not complicated (remove GHG from the air, remove endocrine disruptors from the food cycle, etc.)

Are you abstracting away the technical complexity when stating that it's not complicated? GHG removal tech that would scale simply doesn't exist if we intend to have some energy left to do anything else, as for removing pfas and microplastics from the environment, we are at the stage of running experiments in petri dishes.

And even if we abstract away the technical complexity, good luck convincing anyone to stop burning the free fuel we have lying around doing nothing now that we have everything-nuclear-solar and GHG removal at scale. We can barely convince our councils to build cycle lanes in dense areas if that removes any space for SUVs.

I wish I'd share the blind optimism of people like you, it seems pleasant to live in your heads...

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by pas on Monday July 21, 2025 @12:05PM (#44636839)
ah, sorry, I am not optimistic, I just accepted that it's not a technical, logistical, or "resource constraints" problem

it's a coordination problem as you mentioned

based on this I moved to a place where I think things are a bit less crazy with regards to that (well, famous last comments ...eheh)

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by simgt on Tuesday July 22, 2025 @03:26AM (#44644132)
Ha, that was really not obvious in your initial comment, thanks for clarifying!

> based on this I moved to a place where I think things are a bit less crazy with regards to that (well, famous last comments ...eheh)

Mind telling us pessimists where that might be? ;)

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by pas on Saturday July 26, 2025 @04:54PM (#44696843)
Hungary -> Spain
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by anthk on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:46AM (#44624251)
Fossil fuels will crumble down when the ITER gets working well. China already did some experiments on salts based nuclear plants, but no fusion jet.

Still, the days for the uber-polluted Beijing are numbered. It will change drastically.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by mandmandam on Sunday July 20, 2025 @01:32PM (#44627348)
You're giving a very poor reading of OP's argument, first of all. Jumping to the conclusion that they don't want Chinese people to have clean water is downright bad faith.

Second, "continued growth is good" is a hell of a thing to say on a planet with finite resources. There's a limit! And if you expand your worldview to include other life on this planet and not just society then we've pushed far beyond what's wise already.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by rizs12 on Sunday July 20, 2025 @02:04PM (#44627663)
China is a developed country! This dialogue about Chinese people and clean water is bizarre
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by mandmandam on Sunday July 20, 2025 @02:05PM (#44627680)
Fair point, I ought have made that clear. There are many ways in which Chinese people have it better than Americans these days, if my eyes are to be believed.
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by djfivyvusn on Wednesday July 23, 2025 @02:19AM (#44656197)
Insane take.
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by mandmandam on Thursday July 24, 2025 @07:27AM (#44669441)
That's not how we talk here. Also, I was defending your argument lol.

But still, I'll bite - how so? Because I see videos like this:

https://x.com/Zlatti_71/status/1947556095779610961

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiNrcHhDTsI

And I compare them to, say, any American city.

You can't watch those and seriously believe that there couldn't possibly be any aspects of Chinese life which are superior, and further, to think that's "insane".

Those aren't cherry-picked videos. There are thousands out there, if you care to look; watch xiaomanyc's videos and there's simply no denying your eyes. Their cars are better, their night life is better, their food is better, their housing is better, their daily lives are better, in many, many ways. Not every way, but in many ways - which is what I said.

You've been propagandized your whole life to think America is number one, but that was only even remotely true before 'we' pissed away our future on genocidal forever wars to make the 0.1% a little wealthier. Now most people see America negatively. Literally the vast majority of countries have an overall negative opinion of America; and we're seen as the number one threat to peace and stability.

Chinese people used to think they're hearing propaganda when they hear American's stories about health insurance, or the political scene - because to them, that's impossible to believe. Yet what you find impossible to believe is that they might have it better in some ways. I hope you have a good long think about that.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by rizs12 on Sunday July 20, 2025 @01:59PM (#44627616)
Lmao how can you say 'poor Indian and Chinese people' in the same sentence? China is a first world country
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by djfivyvusn on Wednesday July 23, 2025 @02:19AM (#44656198)
No it's not. 50c army out today.
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by mayas_ on Sunday July 20, 2025 @06:51AM (#44623864)
Not quite sure about the affordability part.

Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive. Housing is becoming a luxury.

Even consumer products are becoming increasingly expensive.

Safety largely improved but not craftsmanship.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by SapporoChris on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:13AM (#44624037)
BYD launches new 2025 Dolphin EV with the same $14K price tag and more range.

https://electrek.co/2024/07/08/byd-launches-2025-dolphin-ev-...

The problems you mentioned are a local problem, not a global problem.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by cantor_S_drug on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:03AM (#44623949)
That is uniquely american or first world experience. I won't comment on the mechanisms of wealth transfer from rest of the world to first world. The rest of the world has been very hardworking and trying to make it one day at a time. Here's an example.

A Day in Life of Africa’s Wooden Scooter Crew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzL3vZ6jDSk

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by lioeters on Sunday July 20, 2025 @11:03AM (#44625844)
Great recommendation, I'm watching it now. It reminds me of another documentary about a festival with hand-built vehicles made of recycled Vespas that are extremely customized.

Indonesia’s Tricked Out Vespas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVeVZ-Iugkg

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by whoisyc on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:44AM (#44624239)
Car prices are affected by ease of financing and a huge second hand market. The former make it easier to “afford” a fancy vehicle (whether or not you actually afford it is another question) and the later means fierce competition in the lower parts of the market making cheap cars less profitable.
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by jstummbillig on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:05AM (#44623961)
> Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive.

Adjusted for inflation, car prices are actually lower now than decades ago, especially factoring in huge safety and tech improvements. Entry-level models remain affordable, while buyers voluntarily pay more for SUVs and tech-heavy EVs.

> Housing is becoming a luxury.

Rising housing prices are mostly driven by land scarcity and zoning. The actual cost per square meter of construction (build quality) has improved and remains stable.

> Even consumer products are becoming increasingly expensive.

Nope. Electronics, clothing, and appliances have become dramatically cheaper. Quality-adjusted prices for TVs and computers have plummeted.

> Safety largely improved but not craftsmanship.

Craftsmanship is alive and well, if you are willing to pay for it. Which most consumers are not; they prefer being able to afford more things at lower prices and quicker tech cycles.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by ghaff on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:28AM (#44624125)
Generally agree.

In snowbelt (and even somewhat sub-snowbelt) regions, cars would pretty much rust out at 50K miles and starting when conditions were wet or cold could be an adventure.

And, while I have the option of buying an expensive "handmade" (with the aid of expensive CNC equipment) dining room table--which I have done--I also have the option of buying a sturdy and nice-looking mail-order bed for $300 that I assemble.

Housing is the main thing but, as you say, that's mostly a matter of location. There are a ton of cheaper locations but many don't want to live there--even if they're fairly accessible to a major city.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by jltsiren on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:44AM (#44624237)
Cost per square meter is a misleading measure. A model that assigns a fixed price to a 0 m2 home and an additional price for each square meter is a better match for both construction costs and subjective utility.

Or maybe the additional price should be based on the number of rooms instead. Adding empty space by making the rooms bigger is cheap, but extra rooms are usually more valuable to those on a limited budget.

Where I live in California, construction itself has become unaffordable. Even if the land were free, construction and permits are now so expensive that it's impossible to build affordable housing without subsidies.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by amluto on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:22AM (#44624096)
> The actual cost per square meter of construction (build quality) has improved and remains stable.

Do you have a source? And are you considering expensive markets (cough, Los Angeles)?

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by carlosjobim on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:29AM (#44624127)
> Adjusted for inflation, car prices are actually lower now than decades ago

And so are salaries. Just compare what kind of job you needed to be able to afford a car 40 years ago to today.

Reality is still reality, people live in it and face it everyday.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by LorenPechtel on Sunday July 20, 2025 @04:49PM (#44629184)
Disagree. Real wages are ahead of all market sectors except medical and rent. People are making a bad comparison--they look at what they have vs what their parents have and see their parents doing better. Yeah, 20 or 30 years later in their career, plus a lot of time building up assets, that's actually to be expected. The proper comparison is between cohorts, but that can only be done by digging into the data, not by experience.

Wealth inequality? The majority is from comparing those starting out to those at retirement. Likewise, the majority of income inequality is hours worked. (Not to say that there aren't other factors, but in both cases when you compare apples to apples it explains more than half the range.)

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by carlosjobim on Sunday July 20, 2025 @06:14PM (#44629843)
But their parents didn't need 20 or 30 years to build up their assets, or did they? They could purchase a new car when they were in their prime at 20-30 years old. Real estate they already had before buying the car. People who are in their prime today have to wait to be 50+ to have real estate, and if they want to have a new car they have to forgo that.
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by LorenPechtel on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:23PM (#44630338)
Oh?

My parents, both PhD's. AFIAK first car (they had lived where they didn't have as much need of one) was in their 40s. First house in their 50s. We bought our first house (bigger and better than anything my parents ever owned) when I was still in my 20s. (She's older but did not come with any assets beyond her education.)

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by itfossil on Sunday July 20, 2025 @08:23AM (#44624527)
Adjusted for inflation? Who cares? People's compensation haven't risen enough to even account for inflation so how is that helpful?

It's not. Saying something isn't expensive because its the same price after adjusting for inflation is a slap to the face of millions, perhaps even billions who are effectively making less now than they were ten or twenty years ago after they adjust for inflation.

That phrase is not the silver bullet you seem to think it is.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by terminalshort on Sunday July 20, 2025 @08:38AM (#44624611)
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by jcgrillo on Sunday July 20, 2025 @08:56AM (#44624782)
> factoring in huge safety and tech improvements

safety... maybe. tech? no. Having to plug in an expensive proprietary diagnostic device to diagnose problems, dozens of computers, hundreds of sensors many of which can render the vehicle bricked and inoperable if they're not working correctly.. None of this is better.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by AdrianB1 on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:13AM (#44624033)
Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive because they get more and more stuff included. I owned cars in the 90's and cars from 2015, the newer one came in the basic trim with stuff that adds to complexity and cost, from AC and electric windows to dozen aibags, sensors and driving aids.

For housing, there are 2 things that happened: regulations made houses more expensive to build (I personally built 3 houses in the past 35 years, I saw the increase in cost) and second thing is house prices are totally disconnected to cost, my current home is evaluated (for tax purpose) about 3 times the real cost to build it. Except the buyers, everyone is happy to have a huge increase in housing cost, builders make more money, local governments raise more taxes, buyers are screwed from all sides and not many people go build their own, even if it many places is still possible (I currently planning to build a house for some friends).

But in a way building a house is cheaper: tools, technology and new materials make it faster and cheaper to build. It should make houses more affordable, if the other factors would not completely eat this saving.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by pas on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:27PM (#44630365)
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by terminalshort on Sunday July 20, 2025 @08:26AM (#44624545)
Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by dahart on Sunday July 20, 2025 @11:26AM (#44626075)
> Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive

This isn’t true. There are dozens of car models near $20k today, and most of the base model inexpensive cars in the US have always cost around today’s $20k-$30k in adjusted dollars. Even the Ford model T: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0512/how-inflati...

Quality of cars today is unquestionably better, and the number of features and conveniences is unquestionably higher. Cars last longer than they used to, a lot longer on average. There’s ample stats on this.

The average price of cars has gone up slowly relative to inflation because there are now better cars to choose from, and people choose to pay more. But you can’t even buy something as bad as a 1930s or 1950s or 1980s car today, and you can get a much better car now for less money than you could then.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by jmrm on Sunday July 20, 2025 @06:48AM (#44623841)
I would add that sometimes when people usually say that rancid phrase of "they don't make it as they used to", they are comparing expensive products in the past with cheap ones in the present.

Most of those "good 'ol" goods exist, but probably are pretty/too expensive for what we are used to pay.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by mihaic on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:51AM (#44624284)
While that's sometimes the case, those expensive products were the norm, and now no longer exist as an accessible option.

For many products, the market went with cheap and crappy, and quality became a niche that is no longer available in the general economy, and can only be found with great cost and effort.

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by cantor_S_drug on Sunday July 20, 2025 @07:01AM (#44623934)
Thos who think quality has decreased should watch this youtube shorts channel.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LqnWuMD6DU8

Re:The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality by koliber on Sunday July 20, 2025 @09:06AM (#44624855)
You are highlighting the difference between theory and practice.

In theory we can make higher quality things, but in practice we are not doing it.

Quality has gone down.