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Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by socalgal2 on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @03:59AM (#44296713)
> ChatGPT and Gemini literally only know the answer because they read StackOverflow. Stack Overflow only exists because they have visitors.

I know this isn't true because I work on an API that has no answers on stackoverflow (too new), nor does it have answers anywhere else. Yet, the AI seems to able to accurately answer many questions about it. To be honest I've been somewhat shocked at this.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by bbarnett on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @04:15AM (#44296793)
It is absolutely true, and AI cannot think, reason, comprehend anything it has not seen before. If you're getting answers, it has seen it elsewhere, or it is literally dumb, statistical luck.

That doesn't mean it knows the answer. That means it guessed or hallucinated correctly. Guessing isn't knowing.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by lechatonnoir on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @04:20AM (#44296831)
This is such a pointless, tired take.

You want to say this guy's experience isn't reproducible? That's one thing, but that's probably not the case unless you're assuming they're pretty stupid themselves.

You want to say that it Is reproducible, but that "that doesn't mean AI can think"? Okay, but that's not what the thread was about.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by PeterStuer on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @04:24AM (#44296847)
What would convince you otherwise? The reason I ask is because you sound like you have made up your mind phylosophically, not based on practical experience.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by rsanheim on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @04:26AM (#44296866)
It's just Pattern matching. Most APIs, and hell, most code is not unique or special. Its all been done a thousands of times before. Thats why an LLM can be helpful on some tool you've written just for yourself and never released anywhere.

As to 'knows the answer', I'm don't even know what that means with these tools. All I know is if it is helpful or not.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by danielbln on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @07:53AM (#44298023)
Also, most problems are decomposable into simpler, certainly not novel parts. That intractable unicorn problem I hear so much about is probably composed of very pedestrian sub-problems.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by genewitch on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @09:01PM (#44305657)
to what does "unicorn problem" refer to? a specific thing or a general idea?
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by danielbln on Friday June 20, 2025 @06:18AM (#44326299)
General idea, it comes up often in LLM discussion from engineers lamenting that LLMs can never solve any novel problems. This might as well be true but as said, almost any problem can be decomposed into bite sized, non-novel parts.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by CamperBob2 on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @11:55AM (#44300624)
'Pattern matching' isn't just all you need, it's all there is.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by jumploops on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @05:24AM (#44297195)
> It is absolutely true, and AI cannot think, reason, comprehend anything it has not seen before.

The amazing thing about LLMs is that we still don’t know how (or why) they work!

Yes, they’re magic mirrors that regurgitate the corpus of human knowledge.

But as it turns out, most human knowledge is already regurgitation (see: the patent system).

Novelty is rare, and LLMs have an incredible ability to pattern match and see issues in “novel” code, because they’ve seen those same patterns elsewhere.

Do they hallucinate? Absolutely.

Does that mean they’re useless? Or does that mean some bespoke code doesn’t provide the most obvious interface?

Having dealt with humans, the confidence problem isn’t unique to LLMs…

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by rainonmoon on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @08:12AM (#44298162)
> the corpus of human knowledge.

Goodness this is a dim view on the breadth of human knowledge.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by jamesrcole on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @08:23AM (#44298270)
what do you object to about it? I don't see an issue with referring to "the corpus of human knowledge". "Corpus" pretty much just means the "collection of".
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by jazzyjackson on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @09:09AM (#44298745)
Human knowledge != Reddit/Twitter/Wikipedia
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by oezi on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @10:43AM (#44299890)
Conversely, what do you posit is part of human knowledge but isn't scrapable from the internet?
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by jazzyjackson on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @11:50AM (#44300574)
I mean, as far as a corpus goes, I suppose all text on the internet gets pretty close if most books are included, but even then you’re mostly looking at English language books that have been OCR’d.

But I look down my nose at conceptions that human knowledge is packagable as plain text, our lives, experience, and intelligence is so much more than the cognitive strings we assemble in our heads in order to reason. It’s like in that movie Contact when Jodie Foster muses that they should have sent a poet. Our empathy and curiosity and desires are not encoded in UTF8. You might say these are realms other than knowledge, but woe to the engineer who thinks they’re building anything superhuman while leaving these dimensions out, they’re left with a cold super-rationalist with no impulse to create of its own.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by jamesrcole on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @10:32AM (#44299734)
Who said it was? I’m pretty sure they’re trained on a lot more than just those.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by skydhash on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @07:41AM (#44297931)
> The amazing thing about LLMs is that we still don’t know how (or why) they work!

You may want to take a course in machine learning and read a few papers.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by js8 on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @09:30AM (#44298971)
Sorry, but that's reductionism. We don't know how human brain works, and that you won't get there by studying quantum electrodynamics.

LLMs are insanely complex systems and their emergent behavior is not explained by the algorithm alone.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by dboreham on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @09:32AM (#44299000)
Suspect you and the parent poster are thinking on different levels.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by whateverbrah on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @10:42AM (#44299877)
That was sarcasm by the poster, in case you failed to notice.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by semiquaver on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @12:15PM (#44300792)
Parent is right. We know mechanically how LLMs are trained and used but why they work as well as they do is very much not known.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by hombre_fatal on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @05:56AM (#44297366)
This doesn't seem like a useful nor accurate way of describing LLMs.

When I built my own programming language and used it to build a unique toy reactivity system and then asked the LLM "what can I improve in this file", you're essentially saying it "only" could help me because it learned how it could improve arbitrary code before in other languages and then it generalized those patterns to help me with novel code and my novel reactivity system.

"It just saw that before on Stack Overflow" is a bad trivialization of that.

It saw what on Stack Overflow? Concrete code examples that it generalized into abstract concepts it could apply to novel applications? Because that's the whole damn point.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by skydhash on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @07:47AM (#44297976)
Programming languages, by their nature of being formal notation, only have a few patterns to follow, all of them listed in the grammar of that language. And then there’s only so much libraries out there. I believe there’s more unique comments and other code explanations out there than unique code patterns. Take something like MDN where there’s a full page of text for every JavaScript, html, css symbol.
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by demosthanos on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @08:23AM (#44298266)
This is wrong. I write toy languages and frameworks for fun. These are APIs that simply don't exist outside of my code base, and LLMs are consistently able to:

* Read the signatures of the functions.

* Use the code correctly.

* Answer questions about the behavior of the underlying API by consulting the code.

Of course they're just guessing if they go beyond what's in their context window, but don't underestimate context window!

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by bbarnett on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @08:25AM (#44298293)
So, you're saying you provided examples of the code and APIs and more, in the context window, and it succeeds? That sounds very much unlike the post I responded to, which claimed "no knowledge". You're also seemingly missing this:

"If you're getting answers, it has seen it elsewhere"

The context window is 'elsewhere'.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by semiquaver on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @12:06PM (#44300719)
This is moving goalposts vs the original claim upthread that LLMs are just regurgitating human-authored stackoverflow answers and without those answers it would be useless.

It’s silly to say that something LLMs can reliably do is impossible and every time it happens it’s “dumb luck”.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by demosthanos on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @08:40AM (#44298418)
If that's the distinction you're drawing then it's totally meaningless in the context of the question of where the information is going to come from if not Stack Overflow. We're never in a situation where we're using an open source library that has zero information about it: The code is by definition available to be put in the context window.

As they say, it sounds like you're technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. You're correct within the extremely artificial parameters that you created for yourself, but not in any real world context that matters when it comes to real people using these tools.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by fnordpiglet on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @11:37AM (#44300435)
The argument is futile as the goal posts move constantly. In one moment the assertion is it’s just megacopy paste, then the next when evidence is shown that it’s able to one shot construct seemingly novel and correct answers from an api spec or grammar never seen before, the goal posts move to “it’s unable to produce results on things it’s never been trained on or in its context” - as if making up a fake language and asking it write code in it and its inability to do so without a grammar is an indication of literally anything.

To anyone who has used these tools in anger it’s remarkable given they’re only trained on large corpuses of language and feedback they’re able to produce what they do. I don’t claim they exist outside their weights, that’s absurd. But the entire point of non linear function activations with many layers and parameters is to learn highly complex non linear relationships. The fact they can be trained as much as they are with as much data as they have without overfitting or gradient explosions means the very nature of language contains immense information in its encoding and structure, and the network by definition of how it works and is trained does -not- just return what it was trained on. It’s able to curve fit complex functions that inter relate semantic concepts that are clearly not understood as we understand them, but in some ways it represents an “understanding” that’s sometimes perhaps more complex and nuanced than even we can.

Anyway the stochastic parrot euphemism misses the point that parrots are incredibly intelligent animals - which is apt since those who use that phrase are missing the point.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by Workaccount2 on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @10:18AM (#44299561)
>It is absolutely true, and AI cannot think, reason, comprehend anything it has not seen before. If you're getting answers, it has seen it elsewhere, or it is literally dumb, statistical luck.

How would you reconcile this with the fact that SOTA models are only a few TB in size? Trained on exabytes of data, yet only a few TB in the end.

Correct answers couldn't be dumb luck either, because otherwise the models would pretty much only hallucinate (the space of wrong answers is many orders of magnitude larger than the space of correct answers), similar to the early proto GPT models.

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by efavdb on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @11:06AM (#44300139)
Could it be that there is a lot of redundancy in the training data?
Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by daveguy on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @11:49AM (#44300556)
> How would you reconcile this with the fact that SOTA models are only a few TB in size? Trained on exabytes of data, yet only a few TB in the end.

This is false. You are off by ~4 orders of magnitude by claiming these models are trained on exabytes of data. It is closer to 500TB of more curated data at most. Contrary to popular belief LLMs are not trained on "all of the data on the internet". I responded to another one of your posts that makes this false claim here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44283713

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by gejose on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @10:50AM (#44299961)
I'm sorry but this is a gross oversimplification. You can also apply this to the human brain.

"<the human brain> cannot think, reason, comprehend anything it has not seen before. If you're getting answers, it has seen it elsewhere, or it is literally dumb, statistical luck."

Re:Generative AI coding tools and agents do not work for me by gwhr on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @08:18AM (#44298224)
What kind of API is it? Curious if it's a common problem that the AI was able to solve?