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Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by Mizza on Friday May 23, 2025 @09:08PM (#44078028)
She didn't even break the top 10 in this content: https://www.societyforscience.org/regeneron-sts/2025-student...

I'm impressed beyond words by these kids, though I think I'd give her the top prize. Watching my grandfather's final days taken away from him by the effects of morphine has always made me wish so much that we had much more effective non-narcotic painkillers

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by irjustin on Friday May 23, 2025 @09:15PM (#44078051)
https://www.societyforscience.org/press-release/regeneron-is...

She's in top 4, awarded $600? I dunno this is a confusing layout/structure for how the program is conducted seeing as how the headline is $9m awarded.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by ricardobeat on Friday May 23, 2025 @09:22PM (#44078082)
Reversible computing, materials science, genetic research… it’s insane that these kids are doing this level of work in high school.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by timr on Friday May 23, 2025 @11:22PM (#44078513)
They aren't doing it on their own. Most of these kids are working with established researchers who give them the shape of the project, as well as the tools and the expertise to accomplish it.

More recently the US scientific funding bodies have had summer programs for kids who wouldn't otherwise get that kind of access, but it's still the exception. It takes more than a summer to do this kind of work.

Edit: quick search for the father's name brings up this professor of biochemistry at UT Tyler:

https://www.uttyler.edu/directory/chemistry/lee-jiyong.php

and mom's name brings up this professor of pharmaceutical science:

https://www.unthsc.edu/college-of-pharmacy/eul-hyun-suh

I don't mean to take anything away from the kid or suggest that they don't work hard, are smart, etc., but these kinds of science fairs are fundamentally about access.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by carlmr on Saturday May 24, 2025 @12:43AM (#44078835)
>these kinds of science fairs are fundamentally about access.

Completely agree there, which kind of brings me to a related thought:

One thing I do wonder is, if you look at a few hundred years ago a lot of the inventors in math, physics, engineering, were a tiny group of people with access to resources and education. You're always reading the same names.

It seems if we as a society could decide that science is more important to us, with 8 billion people on earth, if we gave more access, time and incentives to people we should be able to increase the amount of scientific results exponentially.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by fc417fc802 on Saturday May 24, 2025 @03:43AM (#44079516)
> if we gave more access, time and incentives to people we should be able to increase the amount of scientific results exponentially.

That's how ML research is - all you need is sufficient compute and some torrented training data. It gives rise to a new problem of drowning in the literature. I think we simply don't have the tooling and institutions to integrate simultaneous scientific advancements from any significant portion of the population.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by timr on Saturday May 24, 2025 @01:21AM (#44078935)
Meh. While I think the broad theme is fine (more access to education is generally good -- particularly when it comes to scientific literacy amongst the general public!), I think trying to encourage "research" in this way is largely pushing on a string. I can never figure out if this whole phenomenon of "science fairs" is just Kabuki theater for everyone involved, or if there's a core group of deeply deluded organizers who really believe that they're Making A Difference (tm) in scientific research, and are just completely blind to the career prospects of actual young scientists [1].

Time and experience has shown that "scientific innovation" cannot be made to happen faster by throwing more money at it, and a promising young person would be much better off by putting their talents to use doing something less random [2]. You can produce more good research in aggregate (maybe), but only in the same way that you can find more gold by crushing more rocks. Either way, you have to crush the rocks.

For example, the US government dramatically increased grad school funding through the 80s-2000s, and the primary outcome was an employment crisis amongst PhDs in the sciences. In the 40s-70s it was fairly straightforward to establish a career in research, but these days it's Hunger Games. I sort of fundamentally believe that the reason most science came out of the European aristocracy was not due to inequity, but because only someone well-off could devote their lives to something so erratic. Science is an avocation, not a vocation.

Science fairs and the like are a weird little subculture of college-application polishers, in part because nobody in their right mind actually wants to become a scientist. I think it's a safe bet that the young woman in this article ends up doing something more lucrative with her life (and good for her, if she does).

[1] Or even more cynically: the organizers do know, and are doing it because it builds their own careers.

[2] Or at least, with a higher alpha.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by mjevans on Saturday May 24, 2025 @03:06AM (#44079304)
I suspect you're correct about basic / true research and discovery of 'the new'.

Also probably about that US Gov funding. I've heard it's more about knowing how to write a grant than it is about being worthy of getting one. Better direction, better active identification of candidates (instead of the passive system that's biased towards large players), better stability. All of those would help.

However, there's a _lot_ of stuff that would be within reach, were only enough mass manufacture involved to drive down the adoption cost and break through the catch 22. Many things only need for gathering the correct sort of people, giving them enough room to work on a clear goal, and seeing where things really are.

The big business problems with that are figuring out if the return is plausibly worth the investment, and feeding the baby long enough that it can become a working adult.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by tomabuct on Saturday May 24, 2025 @03:51AM (#44079553)
Eh. Even if 1 in 10000000 of the kids that do "science fairs" end up in "science research" with at least one "scientific innovation", and the rest of them make $$$ in industry, that's them working. This comment is asinine on too many levels to fully rebut.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by carlmr on Saturday May 24, 2025 @03:53AM (#44079563)
Agreed, I don't believe the science fair will push research, but we need to lay the groundwork to build a society of researchers instead one of office drones, going through JIRA tickets.

The comment above yours is a really poor strawmanning attempt.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by timr on Saturday May 24, 2025 @04:08AM (#44079632)
> This comment is asinine on too many levels to fully rebut.

Thanks. I mean, it's not like I have direct experience with this stuff or anything, as one of those "10000000" who spent years of my life doing science, only to end up in industry.

Also, it's not like I (and those other 9,999,999 kids) would do better by skipping the years of science and going directly to the productive part, or that those (now grown up) "kids" are encouraged to continue circling the airstrip of life by the funding programs that are happy to pay postdoc salaries -- postdocs being the best kind of indentured labor -- to keep the dream alive just a little bit longer.

It's clearly much better to waste the time of our smartest people, by injecting false economic incentives into the system in an effort to socially engineer some kind of scientific command economy. Let's grind those rocks, and turn the cheap gravel into concrete to build glorious future!

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by tomabuct on Saturday May 24, 2025 @07:13PM (#44084329)
Resentment is inherently anecdotal, but nevertheless a data point.

The issue with your argument is that you’re conflating two different points on the academic pipeline by shitting on high school science fairs because of the post-doc hellscape further down the line.

The latter is a special case of low wage, dead-end jobs that are inherent to capitalism, which can more generally leave anyone paralyzed in a vicious grind loop. Improving this may require capitalistic reform such as UBI and increased housing supply, but is the human condition of the quest for satisfaction in one’s niche.

The former is exposure to future possibilities that could satisfy the constraints of economic and intellectual well-being, likely through incremental progress but with the potential for breakthrough in either realm.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by fc417fc802 on Saturday May 24, 2025 @03:37AM (#44079471)
> not due to inequity, but because only someone well-off could devote their lives to something so erratic.

Aren't those effectively the same thing? At least in the given context where society doesn't have the resources available for everyone to live like that.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by timr on Saturday May 24, 2025 @04:22AM (#44079670)
Effectively the same in terms of distribution of outcome, perhaps, but it's a bit like saying that it's really unfortunate that poor people can't afford their own manicured gardens, peacock collection and garage full of antique race cars.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by fc417fc802 on Saturday May 24, 2025 @06:10AM (#44080029)
Only someone well off could devote the necessary resources to have a garage full of antique race cars.

People who can afford a garage full of antique race cars only exist due to inequity.

What's the difference between those statements? As far as I can tell the latter includes the former while adding an implicit assumption about total available resources versus total population.

Apologies if it seems like I derailed things. Your comment was interesting but I didn't understand (still don't) the significance of the distinction you went out of your way to draw there. That said, I think the trailing remark that "only someone well-off could devote their lives to something so erratic" really hits the nail on the head. Even today you can see elements of that, for example on certain parts of youtube. People with excessive expendable income occasionally do some really impressive stuff.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by mschuster91 on Saturday May 24, 2025 @04:34AM (#44079709)
> It seems if we as a society could decide that science is more important to us, with 8 billion people on earth, if we gave more access, time and incentives to people we should be able to increase the amount of scientific results exponentially.

Yep, but we collectively decided that it is more profitable to put the best minds that manage to survive the education trials to either shaving off 0.0000001 cents of each financial transaction and to still make billions of dollars off of that or to sell ads so people get convinced they need to buy something. And those that get dropped along the education pipeline, we either let them stay on the road side and let them rot in poverty or we just use them as yet another source of labor ready to be exploited.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by laughingcurve on Saturday May 24, 2025 @08:08AM (#44080554)
Thank god someone bothered to explain it to HN.

As someone getting a PhD at a top school and the first in my family to ever make it past high school I can assure you all these kids are raised from birth in a test tube by their parents.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by AStonesThrow on Friday May 23, 2025 @11:22PM (#44078514)
Science projects are a family affair, more often than not. Ask me how I know.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by fracus on Friday May 23, 2025 @10:13PM (#44078249)
I thought morphine didn't cause health damage to the human body apart from addiction and withdrawal symptoms.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by shanemhansen on Friday May 23, 2025 @10:22PM (#44078279)
Well it absolutely muddles your mind when you're on it and it causes constipation. It can also depress your respiratory system.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by dreamcompiler on Saturday May 24, 2025 @12:18AM (#44078734)
And it can make some people very nauseous.

Nobody discusses these mundane drawbacks when they talk about the evils of heroin addiction. When you're high, you puke and you cannot give a shit. Both figuratively and literally.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by johnisgood on Saturday May 24, 2025 @03:33AM (#44079441)
Not everyone experiences side-effects of opioids, in fact, they are not even THAT common. I do not experience euphoria, nausea, mental fog, or any sedation from ANY opioids. I experience constipation, but I am fine with that. Morphine might be more dulling (or foggy) than say, oxycodone, but it highly varies.

As for "depress your respiratory system", yeah, in high enough doses, or if you are especially sensitive to it.

Pharmaceutical opioids are pretty much safer than NSAIDs. The side-effects of NSAIDs are actually worse than the side-effect of opioids. You will not get ulcers, blood clots, stroke, heart issues, GI issues, and all sorts of other issues with opioids.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by cjbgkagh on Friday May 23, 2025 @10:37PM (#44078349)
Morphine, like all neurotransmitter drugs, affects the autonomic nervous system which can yield a cornucopia of unwanted and seemingly unrelated side effects. It’s a complex system that’s best treated with care.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by lenerdenator on Friday May 23, 2025 @10:20PM (#44078270)
at least according to these people [0], you can overdose on morphine, same as any opiate or opioid. not sure their credentials but it makes sense; it's an opioid/opiate and those can cause respiratory depression.

[0]https://www.addictiongroup.org/drugs/opioids/morphine/overdo...

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by DontchaKnowit on Friday May 23, 2025 @10:36PM (#44078343)
Yeah its like any other opiod- it depresses respiratory function which can cause death but it isnt directly toxic to any organs like APAP is
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by dreamcompiler on Saturday May 24, 2025 @12:22AM (#44078749)
Oh yeah morphine overdose will kill you dead because you will stop breathing and you won't even know it happened.

The instant antidote is Narcan which is available over the counter at pharmacies in some states.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by AStonesThrow on Friday May 23, 2025 @10:40PM (#44078357)
Nurses in palliative care and hospice are well-known to generously administer morphine in increasing doses, because it eventually takes away all the pain and suffering (of the families and nurses).
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by Kevcmk on Saturday May 24, 2025 @12:23AM (#44078753)
That’s a controversial take
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by johnmaguire on Saturday May 24, 2025 @12:51AM (#44078854)
Which part? This is definitely a common practice.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4594093/

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by amelius on Saturday May 24, 2025 @08:06AM (#44080534)
Not just of the families and nurses.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by const_cast on Sunday May 25, 2025 @05:10PM (#44091164)
.. and of the patient. Being in pain, especially constant pain, sucks major ass. People who haven't gone through that don't really know. You can't just ignore it so, in turn, it occupies every space in your brain. We don't realize how many functions we possess that require the precondition of some level of comfort.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by abridges6532 on Monday May 26, 2025 @06:37AM (#44096002)
As someone young with chronic pain issue but otherwise healthy , obviously increasing doses of opioids or really any opioids at all. This aspect of it occupying every space of your brain can be true in this case as well. It’s hard to compartmentalize and still go about your daily life while no one can see the anguish your in.
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by apwell23 on Saturday May 24, 2025 @12:57AM (#44078873)
> Watching my grandfather's final days taken away from him by the effects of morphine

Those were not prbly his final days. he was artifically kept alive by modern medicine. Those final days are not natural part of dying.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by petesergeant on Saturday May 24, 2025 @02:19AM (#44079142)
Journavx!
Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by adamredwoods on Saturday May 24, 2025 @12:53PM (#44082256)
I'm pro-morphine as a controlled medicine for extreme pain and end-of-life. I've seen it work. I've had it post-surgery.

Fentanyl, my brother claims to be the best. It, too, can work wonders under a controlled environment.

Re:Modification of acetaminophen to reduce liver toxicity an... by const_cast on Sunday May 25, 2025 @05:08PM (#44091148)
Fentanyl is pretty much better than morphine in every way. Less toxic, cheaper, and works better with less side-effects. Especially less histamine response, which is the body itching people get.

Unfortunately, it's tainted by illicit use. Damned to only be used in dire circumstances. It's a shame, really.