Windows supports Linux because the latter is open source, it's a lot easier than the reverse.

Linux, on the other hand, barely supports Windows because the latter is closed, and not just closed, windows issues component updates which specifically check if they run in wine and stop running, being actively hostile to a potential Linux host.

The two are not equivalent, nobody in the Linux kernel team is actively sabotaging WSL, whereas Microsoft is actively sabotaging wine.

> whereas Microsoft is actively sabotaging wine

Do you have a link to where I can read more about this? My understanding is that Microsoft saw Wine as inconsequential to their business, even offloading the Mono runtime to them [1] when they dropped support for it.

[1] https://www.mono-project.com/

> Until 2020, Microsoft had not made any public statements about Wine. However, the Windows Update online service will block updates to Microsoft applications running in Wine. On 16 February 2005, Ivan Leo Puoti discovered that Microsoft had started checking the Windows Registry for the Wine configuration key and would block the Windows Update for any component.[125] As Puoti noted: "It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)

This. Windows needs to open source its operating system. End of story.

I doubt it would happen, large projects that aren't open source from the onset and are decades old can have licensed or patented code, Microsoft would have to verify line by line that they can open source it.

Wait long enough and it will happen, the question is just "how long". (Microsoft has open-sourced OS and languages from the 1980s) Some days it seems like Microsoft is more interested in Azure, Copilot and GAME PASS and Windows is an afterthought.

I would certainly love it if Microsoft stopped trying to sell Windows and just open sourced it. I think Windows is a much more pleasant desktop operating system than Linux, minus all the ads and mandatory bloat Microsoft has put in lately. But if Windows was open source the community could just take that out.

I really don't see it happening any time in the next decade at least, though. While Windows might not be Microsoft's biggest focus any more it's still a huge income stream for them. They won't just give that up.

Microsoft seems to be taking a outside-in "component at a time" approach to open sourcing Windows. Terminal, Notepad, Paint, Calculator, the new Edit.com replacement, a lot of WSL now, etc.

This approach has been fascinating so far, but yeah not "exciting" from "what crazy things can I do with Windows like put it in a toaster" side of things.

It would be great to see at least a little bit more "middle-out" from Windows Open Source efforts. A minimal build of the NT Kernel and some core Windows components has been "free as in beer" for a while for hobby projects with small screens if you really want to try a very minimal "toaster build" (there's some interesting RPi out there), but the path to commercialization is rough after that point and the "small screens" thing a bit of a weird line in the sand (though understandable given Microsoft's position of power on the desktop and sort of the tablet but not phone).

The NT Kernel is one of the most interesting microkernels left in active use [0], especially given how many processor architectures it has supported over decades and how many it still supports (even the ones that Windows isn't very commercially successful on today). It could be a wealth of power to research and academia if it were open source, even if Microsoft didn't open source any of the Windows Subsystems. It would be academically interesting to see what sort of cool/weird/strange Subsystems people would build if NT were open source. I suppose Microsoft still fears it would be commercially interesting, too.

[0] Some offense, I suppose to XNU here. Apple's kernel is often called a microkernel for its roots from the Mach kernel, but it has rebuilt some monoliths on top of that over the years (Wikipedia more kindly calls it a "hybrid kernel"), and Mach itself is still so Unix flavored. NT's "object oriented" approach is rather unique today, with its more VMS heritage, a deeply alternate path from POSIX/Unix/Linux(/BSD).

I preferred WSL to running linux directly even though I had no need for any windows only software. Not having to spend time configuring my computer to make basic things work like suspend/wake on lid down/up, battery life, hardware acceleration for video playback on the browser, display scaling on external monitor and so on was reason enough.

All this usually works out of the box now, especially if you pick your hardware accordingly.

On Windows, I don't have to pick my hardware accordingly.

I have to onboard a lot of students to work on our research. The software is all linux (of course), and mostly distribution-agnostic. Can't be too old, that's it.

If a student comes with a random laptop, I install WSL on it, mostly ubuntu. apt install <curated list of packets>. Done. Linux laptops are OK too, I think, but so far only had one student with that. Mac OS used to be easy, but gets harder with every release, and every new OS version breaks something (mainly, CERN root) and people have to wait until it's fixed.

> On Windows, I don't have to pick my hardware accordingly.

Fair enough. I think the best way to run Linux if you want to be sure you won't have tweak to stuff is to buy hardware with linux preinstalled. That your choice is more limited is another matter than "linux can't suspend".

Comparing a preinstalled Windows with a linux installed on random laptop whose manufacturer can't be bothered to support is a bit unfair.

Linux on a laptop where the manufacturer did their work runs well.

Yes, machines with Linux preinstalled normally work quite well. But it's still a downside of choosing Linux that the choice of laptops is so much smaller. Similar to the downside of Mac OS that you are locked in to pricey-but-well-built laptops, or the downside of Windows that "it runs Windows" doesn't mean the hardware is not bottom-of-the-barrel crap with a vendor who doesn't care about Linux compatibility. WSL allows to run a sane development environment even then :)

100% agree

That was certainly not the case ~2 years ago, the last time I installed linux on a laptop.

It also doesn't appear to be the case even now. I searched for laptops available in my country that fit my budget and for each laptop searched "<laptop name> linux reddit" on google and filtered for results <1 year old. Each laptop's reports included some or other bug.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linu...

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/leno...

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_o...

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audi...

The laptop with the best reported linux support seemed to be Thinkpad P14s but even there users reported tweaking some config to get fans to run silently and to make the speakers sound acceptable.

https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_...

You are going to find issues for any computer for any OS by looking things up like this.

And yeah, it's best to wait a bit for new models, as support is sorted out, if the manufacturer doesn't support Linux itself. Or pick a manufacturer that sells laptops with Linux preinstalled. That makes the comparison with a laptop with Windows preinstalled fair.

> You are going to find issues for any computer for any OS by looking things up like this

I wasn't cherry-picking things. I literally searched for laptops available in my budget in my country and looked up what was the linux support like for those laptops as reported by people on reddit.

> Or pick a manufacturer that sells laptops with Linux preinstalled

I suppose you are talking about System76, Tuxedo etc. These manufacturers don't ship to my country. Even if I am able to get it shipped, how am I supposed to get warranty?

You weren't cherry picking but the search query you used would lead to issue reports.

HP, Dell and Lenovo also sell Linux laptops on which Linux runs well.

I sympathize with the more limited availability and budget restrictions, but comparisons must be fair: compare a preinstalled Windows and a preinstalled linux, or at least a linux installed on hardware whose manufacturer bothered to work on Linux support.

When the manufacturer did their homework, Linux doesn't have the issues listed earlier. I've seen several laptops of these three brands work flawlessly on Linux and it's been like this for a decade.

I certainly choose my laptops with Linux on mind and I know just picking random models would probably lead me to little issues here and there, and I don't want to deal with this. Although I have installed Linux on random laptops for other people and fortunately haven't run into issues.

As a buyer, how am I supposed to know which manufacturer did their homework and on which laptops?

> it's been like this for a decade

Again, depends on the definition of "flawlessly". Afaik, support for hardware accelerated videoplayback on browsers was broken across the board only three years ago.

> As a buyer, how am I supposed to know which manufacturer did their homework and on which laptops?

You first option is to buy a laptop with linux preinstalled from one of the many manufacturers that provides this. This requires no particular knowledge or time. Admittedly, this may lead you to more expensive options, entry grade laptops won't be an option.

Your second best bet is to read tech reviews. Admittedly this requires time and knowledge, but often enough people turn to their tech literate acquaintance for advice when they want to buy hardware.

> Afaik, support for hardware accelerated videoplayback on browsers was broken across the board only three years ago.

Yes indeed, that's something we didn't have. I agree it sucks. Now, all the OSes have their flaws that others don't have, and it's not like the videos didn't play, in practice it was an issue if you wanted to watch 4K videos for hours on battery. Playing regular videos worked, and you can always lower the quality if your situation doesn't allow the higher qualities. Often enough, you could also get the video and play it outside the browser. I know, not ideal, but also way less annoying that the laptop not suspending when you close the lid because of a glitch or something like this.

> You first option is to buy a laptop with linux preinstalled

I have earnestly tried for >20 minutes trying to find such a laptop with any reputed manufacturer in my country (India) and come up empty-handed. Please suggest any that you can find. Even with Thinkpads, the only options are "Windows" or "No Operating System".

>Your second best bet is to read tech reviews.

Which tech reviews specifically point out linux support?

>Playing regular videos worked, and you can always lower the quality if your situation doesn't allow the higher qualities

The issue was never about whether playing the video worked. CPU video decoding uses much more energy and leads to your laptop running hot and draining battery life.

Can we at least agree to reduce the timeframe for things working flawlessly to "less than two years" instead of "a decade"? Yes you were able to go to the toilet downstairs but the toilet upstairs was definitely broken.

"Thinkpad linux" with region set to India on DDG yields many results, including https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops/

If buying with Linux is not an option at your place, you can always buy one of the many models found with this search without OS and install it yourself. Most thinkpads should be all right. Most elitebooks should do. Dell laptops sold with Ubuntu somewhere on the planet should do. I'm afraid I can't help nore, you'll have to do your search. Finding out which laptops are sold with Linux somewhere should not be rocket science. I don't buy laptops very often, I tend to keep my computers for a healthy amount of time, I can't say what it's like in India in 2025.

> Can we at least agree to reduce the timeframe for things working flawlessly to "less than two years" instead of "a decade"? Yes you were able to go to the toilet downstairs but the toilet upstairs was definitely broken.

No. I understand that it can be a dealbreaker for some, but that's a minor issue for me on laptops, even unplugged, and I do watch a lot of videos (for environmental reasons I tend to avoid watching videos in very high resolutions anyway, so software rendering is a bummer but not a blocker). There are still things that don't work, like Photoshop or MS Office, so you could say that it's still not flawless, still, that doesn't affect me.

>many results, including https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops/

Many results, including a US-specific page of the Lenovo website.

>If buying with Linux is not an option at your place, you can always buy one of the many models found with this search without OS and install it yourself.

>Finding out which laptops are sold with Linux somewhere should not be rocket science.

It should not. Given the amount of time I have already spent on trying to find one, it is fair to say that there are none easily available in India, at least in the consumer laptop market.

> I understand that it can be a dealbreaker for some, but that's a minor issue for me on laptops

Stockholm syndrome.

> Many results, including a US-specific page of the Lenovo website.

Are you failing to see that this US-specific page gives you a long list of models you can consider elsewhere?

> Stockholm syndrome.

Yeah, no. It just appears I have different needs than you and value different tradeoffs. It appears that the incredible comfort Linux brings me offsets the minor inconvenience software rendered browser video playback causes me.

I'm done in this discussion, we've been quite far away the kind of interesting discussions I come to HN for for a few comments now.

> Stockholm syndrome.

Stockholm Syndrome was bullshit made up on the spot to cover for the inability of the person making it up to defend their position with facts or logic, and...that fits most metaphorical uses quite well, too, though its not usually the message the metaphor is intended to communicate.

I use Windows with wsl for work, and Linux and MacOS at home. Windows is a mess, it blows my mind that people pay for it. Sleep has worked less reliably on my work machine than my Fedora Thinkpad, and my Fedora machine is more responsive in pretty much every way despite having modest specs in comparison. Things just randomly stop working on Windows in a way that just doesn't happen on other OSes. It's garbage.

> Where is the reverse WSL on Linux, where Windows is deeply embedded and you have all the Windows features in your hands?

https://github.com/Fmstrat/winapps

Enjoy.

I was actually looking for something like this.

Late I am, but this reminded me of someone else here posting about https://usebottles.com

( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44025837 )

Seems to be based on very polished https://www.winehq.org , so no full VM, but maybe it's less 'heavy'?

I am experimenting with Bottles for an article right now, as it happens -- but no, it does not seem to me that Bottles is at all comparable to WinApps.

WinApps runs the apps on real native Windows in a VM, but integrates their UI with the host OS.

WINE does this anyway, and it's an inherent property of WINE because there is no host OS. WINE does some fakery and indirection to make Unix filesystems appear on drive letters and things, but the app is still executing on the host OS, just via a translation layer.

Bottles runs the apps on top of WINE, but maintains separate WINE instances for each app and allows different onces to have different auxiliary tools, such as games-compatibility libraries, different versions of WINE, etc.

Sigh I knew that. I just posted this in the wider context of running Windows-applications under Linux, no matter which way and how, because at the end of the day that's all that counts. Yah, well. Maybe not, because that WiNE approach could be seen as less ressource intensive, while full-VM feels rather bloated, though more stable.

And because it bubbled up instantly, having read about it before, right here on HN, just ...uhhhmmm...hours ago.

OK, fair enough.

FWIW, I tested Bottles on 2 machines here, one with Ubuntu 22.04 and one with Ubuntu 24.04.

I could not get any app to install in Bottles that wouldn't run under bare WINE. Apart from a friendly GUI -- although it looks awful on any other desktop, like most Gtk 4 apps -- I can't see any benefit to it, TBH.

> You can use Wine/Crosseover, which is cool, but even now the number of software products it supports is tiny. Steam has a lot of games.

This isn't really the case, and hasn't been for some years now, especially since Valve started investing heavily in Wine. The quality of Wine these days is absolutely stunning, to the point that some software runs better under Wine than it does on Win11. Then there's the breadth of support which has has moved the experience from there being a slight chance of something running on Wine, to now it being surprising when something doesn't.

This is really the case and has been for years now.

This is a list of software I run or have run and that I keep checking on every 6th month or so.

Most of them simply dont work, some have unstable limited features.

https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/adobe-cr... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-pa... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-pa... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/visual-s... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/snagit13 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/evernote...