News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by lolinder on Thursday May 08, 2025 @12:56AM (#43923179)
There's no such thing as identity theft, it's all bank fraud or in this case student aid fraud. "Identity theft" is a term coined by banks to try to make it sound like random people should have to deal with the fallout of the banks' bad identity verification practices.

If the student aid system verifies identity by, for example, just validating that the applicants know a single 9-digit number that after the Equifax breach should be considered public information, that is a critical problem with their identity verification system and it should be patched.

Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by nullc on Thursday May 08, 2025 @03:04AM (#43923818)
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by schnitzelstoat on Thursday May 08, 2025 @05:48AM (#43924643)
Haha, I'd never heard this. I liked their TV show I should check out the radio stuff.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by tacass on Thursday May 08, 2025 @01:21AM (#43923286)
I’ve long wondered why victims of this fraud don’t more often sue the institutions that granted fraudulent accounts, for any and all damages and cost incurred.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by looofooo0 on Thursday May 08, 2025 @06:02AM (#43924719)
Read Ross Anderson book Security Eng., it deals a lot with these types of issues. In short, banks try not do anything about as long they do not have to pay for it.

I suspect the issue is similar here with the multi stakeholder problem here. The college needs as many paying students as possible, the workload of the staff should be as low as possible, the office giving out loans wants to have a low workload... All in all good scammers will serve all these needs and happily take the money in the process.

Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by singleshot_ on Thursday May 08, 2025 @06:35PM (#43932052)
Well, you’ve come to the right place.

When someone tricks a bank in a way that harms you, the legal question governing your recovery from the bank is, “Did the bank act negligently, and did that negligence cause you harm?”

Unlike normal life, where “negligent” means “I didn’t enjoy it,” under the law there are several required elements that constitute negligence. One required element of negligence is that for a party’s negligence create liability, the alleged negligent party must have owed the harmed party a duty at the time of the breach of that duty.

Duty can arise in several ways according to state common and statutory law. For example, a doctor owes the duty of the standard of care to his patient. A driver owes the duty to drive the speed limit to other motorists. The question of whether duty exists in any situation is a complex question of law.

One thing that isn’t complicated, though: in every jurisdiction I’ve researched, a bank owes no duty to a non-customer.

This is why victims of identity fraud don’t sue the bank that granted fraudulent accounts: there is no negligence and will this be no recovery. (With the caveat that I’ve seen people who were harmed by a bank where they randomly happened to have an account… in this circumstance, duty can be ascribed to the bank because a banker-customer relationship in which duty is rooted exists).

Corollary: open an account at every major bank to establish a duty-relationship everywhere.

Poor startup idea of the day: Accounts-at-every-bank-as-a-Service.

Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by throwaway2037 on Thursday May 08, 2025 @05:23AM (#43924500)

    > "Identity theft" is a term coined by banks to try to make it sound like random people should have to deal with the fallout of the banks' bad identity verification practices.
Wow, great point. I admit: I have been tricked by financial institutions to believe this term! Another (US military) term that is similarly misleading to me: "surgical strike". If they blow up the bus stop in your neighborhood with a cruise missile fired from 300km away... well, you won't ever feel safe in that neighborhood again... so the strike is certainly less than "surgical".
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by AndrewDavis on Thursday May 08, 2025 @06:04AM (#43924729)
Classic Mitchell and Webb skit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by dani__german on Thursday May 08, 2025 @09:07AM (#43925756)
surgical in this sense means only blowing up the bus stop instead of leveling 6 blocks with a MOAB. Your feelings about safety are supposed to be negatively affected by a bomb. Whether that bomb is a precise or strategic bomb is immaterial.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by hedora on Thursday May 08, 2025 @11:03AM (#43926770)
In places like Gaza, "surgical strike" often means "only" blowing up the support pillar of an occupied multi-story apartment complex in the middle of the night.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by dani__german on Monday May 12, 2025 @12:57PM (#43965122)
Whether we believe the lies of the Israeli government is also not quite related to the topic of Surgical vs Strategic Bombing. Clearly Gaza has been subject to the latter though.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by mschuster91 on Thursday May 08, 2025 @05:41AM (#43924611)
> "Identity theft" is a term coined by banks to try to make it sound like random people should have to deal with the fallout of the banks' bad identity verification practices.

The problem isn't the banks, the problem is that unlike Europe where in most countries it's commonplace for everyone to have a government-issued ID document, the US does not have that requirement and so companies of all sorts abuse documents not meant for that purpose like SSNs or driver licenses that can be trivially forged.

Banks can't invent security out of thin air when a significant part of the US population believes that mandating possession of one is a surefire way into a dictatorship or whatnot.

Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by kasey_junk on Thursday May 08, 2025 @08:21AM (#43925422)
About 3% of the us adult population doesn’t have government issued photo id. So if the issue is forgery say so, it’s not a lack of id or a cultural norm against it.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by username332211 on Thursday May 08, 2025 @09:09AM (#43925777)
How many billions would a major bank loose in a lawsuit, if they did the sensible thing and refused to deal with 3% of the population?
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by trelane on Thursday May 08, 2025 @10:07AM (#43926226)
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by kasey_junk on Thursday May 08, 2025 @10:06AM (#43926223)
4.2% of US _households_ are unbanked. Banks refuse customers for many less extreme reasons than “can’t verify identity” which is in fact a requirement for them with all of their federal and state regulators.
Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by nobody9999 on Thursday May 08, 2025 @10:14AM (#43926281)
>How many billions would a major bank loose in a lawsuit, if they did the sensible thing and refused to deal with 3% of the population?

Zero. Because FINCEN/KYC[0] laws in the US mandate identification for all customers.

Which means that at least 3% of the populations is "unbanked"[1]:

   Some reasons a person might not have a bank account 
   include:

   Lack of access via a nearby bank branch or mobile phone

   Minimum balance fees

   Distrust of the banking system, typically due to lack of transparency    
   regarding fees and deposit timing[1]

   No access to government-issued ID, which is required to open a bank account

   To avoid delinquent debts, such as creditors seizing the account in 
   judgements, or the government collecting back taxes or child support

[0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/k/knowyourclient.asp

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbanked

Edit: Fixed subject/verb agreement (laws/mandate)/fixed quote formatting.

Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by MrBrobot on Friday May 09, 2025 @01:12PM (#43939057)
Further reference for the ID requirements:

https://www.bankhelp.gov/help-topics/bank-accounts/required-...

Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by mschuster91 on Thursday May 08, 2025 @10:25AM (#43926361)
> About 3% of the us adult population doesn’t have government issued photo id.

Add on top of that undocumented people or the issues surrounding the Native American population and their partial autonomy rights, and it becomes a mess very very quickly because it won't stay at "about three percent".

Re:Ghost students are creating an 'agonizing' problem for Ca... by nullc on Thursday May 08, 2025 @11:26AM (#43927036)
What? US banks won't bank you if you don't have 27 distinct forms of government ID and a recent rectal exam.

And then they have someone with an incomprehensible accent in a call center that probably also runs scam calls calling you up and asking for your password as part of their ordinary SOP.

They deploy fancy new tech like "verifying your voice" with some AI crap while simultaneously not allowing your password to have more than 8 characters. (Which must have two symbols but if one of them is ` you'll experience random spontaneous logouts).

There may be many causes of the disaster that is bank security, people not having ID is absolutely not part of it.