News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Gumroad is now open source by that_guy_iain on Friday April 04, 2025 @07:42AM (#43580826)
It's open source as the average person would understand it. This source available stuff is just confusing and the average person would not understand it. What matters is people understand what people are saying and it's quite clear to nearly everyone except pedantic people that you can now go and fetch the Gumroad code and modify, run, etc. "Source available" does not convey that which means using it results in a failure to properly communicate to the average person.

This gatekeeping of what is and is not open source is harmful to the industry. No random organisation defines what the phrase means, what the phrase open source means is defined by what people understand it to be. That's how word definitions happen. And open source phrase is used by a lot more than just tech folk.

And the definition of "open source" as per Oxford Dictionary is "denoting software for which the original source code is made freely available and may be redistributed and modified." Dictionaries outrank everything else when it comes what something means.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by moe_sc on Friday April 04, 2025 @07:53AM (#43580938)
The thing is, HN is a technical audience, not an average person in this regard.

People here know the difference or are easily able to understand it if they haven't been confronted with it.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by that_guy_iain on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:06AM (#43581045)
>People here know the difference or are easily able to understand it if they haven't been confronted with it.

No. They're trying to force a definition of open-source that does not exist to make it FOSS because FOSS people want everything to be FOSS so try to pressure people into it.

The definition is defined by dictionaries and it's different from what is said on here. Quite simply, they're wrong. They want it to mean one thing however the definition of the word by Oxford and Webster applies to what is done in that repo. It is open-source by the definition of the word by people who define and clarify words and not by FOSS devs who want everything to be FOSS. It is open-source! And the fact, people on here don't know that shows people on here don't know the difference.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by singpolyma3 on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:34AM (#43581323)
Says it is open source but not FOSS is just silly. You know what the OSS part of FOSS stands for right?
Re:Gumroad is now open source by boxed on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:37AM (#43581350)
We all know the difference and the difference here is enormous.
Re:Gumroad is now open source by DetroitThrow on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:39AM (#43581379)
>It is open-source!

No, it's not. Please read number 5, it might enlighten you to what people colloquially consider open source, which didn't have a dictionary definition until technical people started using this definition: https://opensource.org/osd

>And the fact, people on here don't know that shows people on here don't know the difference.

..What? Do you know what OSS vs FOSS is?

Re:Gumroad is now open source by HeatrayEnjoyer on Friday April 04, 2025 @11:20AM (#43583706)
OSD is god and gets to prescribe what is and is not open source? Says who?
Re:Gumroad is now open source by DetroitThrow on Friday April 04, 2025 @06:53PM (#43588609)
This doesn't match the Webster's definition either. If your response to that is "there are no gods anyways" then you've earned yourself a chuckle.
Re:Gumroad is now open source by maleldil on Saturday April 05, 2025 @05:36AM (#43592162)
The whole idea is that we need a definition that everyone agrees With. The OSD is what the software community at large agreed, so any licences that claim to be open-source are compared to that.
Re:Gumroad is now open source by troymc on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:45AM (#43581450)
People who develop software have to understand what "open source" means (technically, not just some sloppy interpretation), because using a non-open-source package in an otherwise open source project can contaminate the whole thing. License violations can pose high risks, both financial and reputation losses.

Because of that, a lot of effort goes into helping make sure that software stacks are using consistent licenses. There's a whole industry of standards, audit processes, software and companies to help with this; for example, see:

https://licensehawk.com/software-license-compliance-audits/

https://spdx.org/licenses/

https://www.flexera.com/products/flexnet-manager

Re:Gumroad is now open source by that_guy_iain on Friday April 04, 2025 @10:44AM (#43583178)
People who develop software have to understand the difference between FOSS and Open-Source. We already have a term for what you want to describe as open-source, it's called FOSS.

Words have meanings they're collected and recorded in dictionaries, these are the source of truth for the definition of words. It's important that we have them so we can all talk and know what we mean. This is at the very core of languages.

This open source has to be FOSS is some straight-up bullshit by people who spend all their time in the FOSS community.

By every definition other than the FOSS community, this is open source. That is a fact.

Btw: FOSS means Free and Open Source Software. Even the FOSS community fundamentally says that open source does not neet to be free.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by fenomas on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:18AM (#43581159)
> Dictionaries outrank everything else when it comes what something means.

TFA's license doesn't meet the definition you posted. It restricts who can use/redistribute/modify the software.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by lolinder on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:40AM (#43581393)
> open source as the average person would understand it ... and it's quite clear to nearly everyone except pedantic people that you can now go and fetch the Gumroad code and modify, run, etc.

The average person would also assume that "open source" means "I can legally use this for my business", especially given that Gumroad is a tool that only makes sense if you're running some kind of business.

Unfortunately, this is true here only with a very large asterisk that says "as long as you never make more than $1 million in revenue". Anyone who attempts to treat this software as Open Source in the way they would treat, say, Postgres, will find that the instant they cross the $1 million threshold they have to rebuild their entire e-commerce setup or be in violation of copyright.

For some people maybe $1 million in revenue (not profits, revenue) is legitimately not possible and not worth worrying about. But for others it is, and that's why definitions matter.

(There's also the fact that, intentionally or unintentionally, the license assumes that you either have a business with some amount of revenue or are a government entity or nonprofit. Which means technically a strict reading of the license would suggest running the software without a business is not authorized.)

Re:Gumroad is now open source by Tomte on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:50AM (#43581530)
> Dictionaries outrank everything else when it comes what something means.

Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive.

As is the whole field of linguistics, as you will learn in the very first lecture in such a program. If the grammar rules you learned in school disagree with (any!) native speaker, the rules are wrong.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by afiori on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43581661)
There should be a middleground between "The dictionary is law" and "Any native speaker can redefine a language".

At the very least the direct consequence of

>If the grammar rules you learned in school disagree with (any!) native speaker, the rules are wrong.

is that every language has as many dialects as speakers.

Imo dictionaries are descriptive rather than prescriptive not because it is impossible to have prescriptive definitions or grammar, it is just that dictionaries do not even try; usually they just list common usage of words.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by lolinder on Friday April 04, 2025 @09:07AM (#43581752)
> is that every language has as many dialects as speakers.

This is actually treated as linguistic fact, although we call them "idiolects" when we're talking about that level of granularity.

> not because it is impossible to have prescriptive definitions or grammar, it is just that dictionaries do not even try

They don't try because the field of linguistics has arrived at the conclusion that the role of the linguist is to document what is, not to prescribe what should be. They arrived at that conclusion by studying languages and discovering that they are far, far more messy than prescriptivists had hitherto believed.

The only role that prescriptivism has these days among serious academics is an acknowledgement that while all forms of language are well-structured according to well-defined grammatical rules, cultures assign value judgements to certain forms of speech and so it's valuable to learn your culture's value judgements and learn to speak and write in a way that earns you credibility in your culture.

But even this looks very different than the prescriptivism of old, because what forms of speech and writing get creds vary dramatically from generation to generation, place to place, and even context to context. Learning the grammatical rules taught in traditional schools will not help you fit in on modern social media.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by WhitneyLand on Friday April 04, 2025 @09:24AM (#43581996)
But even knowing all of this, prescriptivism was beaten into many of us growing up, so some internal cringe is unavoidable.

For ex still cringe at people saying “anyways,” even though I know it’s a losing and pointless battle.

Not sure what the biggest driver is - being shamed while growing up, or just latent pedantry.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by afiori on Tuesday April 08, 2025 @04:33AM (#43619528)
I have no issue with the linguists deciding that their discipline is descriptive rather than normative. Most scientific endeavours are.

My issue is with the claim that there is no sense in which a native speaker can make a grammar error. Maybe we should call them "idiolect incongrueces" I do not care.

In my language there is a verb tense that is often misused, I often misuse it and I can hear the resulting sentence I say feel wrong. That is a grammar mistake the same way missing a note in a song is a mistake.

If linguists want to work towards reducing the stigma issues of standardized grammars I commend them and wish them good luck. But that is different from saying that grammar mistake do no exist.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by loneboat on Friday April 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43581658)
> If the grammar rules you learned in school disagree with (any!) native speaker, the rules are wrong.

I understand the sentiment of "the language is defined by its speakers", but this statement seems a bit overblown. According to that logic, it is literally impossible for someone to be incorrect about the meaning of a word.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by lolinder on Friday April 04, 2025 @09:15AM (#43581871)
> it is literally impossible for someone to be incorrect about the meaning of a word.

Yeah, it's important to frame it in terms of idiolects and dialects—any given speaker has an idiolect, and that idiolect is worth describing and documenting uncritically. But that speaker also benefits from speaking a shared dialect with other speakers, and it's valuable for that speaker to be on the same page with other speakers of their dialect about definitions.

I think what OP is getting at is that it's not the role of linguistics to assign a value judgement to a given usage—there are merely benefits that speakers can derive from better understanding the dialects that they use in daily life.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by mitchitized on Friday April 04, 2025 @09:08AM (#43581774)
This actually strikes at the heart of the disconnect between open source philosophy and common vernacular.

I've argued for years that "free" does NOT mean "free to use as long as you follow my restrictions". To me the only licenses that meet this criteria are the permissive ones such as MIT, BSD and friends where the only requirement is preservation of the copyright notice. The vast majority have limits of what you can do, or when you have to pay, or some other BS that just complicates everything and IMHO just reeks of "I'm manipulating the FOSS community so I can make a buck" or "I'm pretending to give this software away but actually have a laundry list of rules you have to live by". Basically the opposite of what "free" means!

Similarly, "open source" implies that I can do whatever I want, since it is "open". But most open source licenses - including this one - have restrictions and in many cases pretty strict ones that forbid use for many. This is not open at all.

Either give it away, or lock it up, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop with the hypocrisy, lying and wordplay so you can make a buck (or satisfy a religious tilt). If you want me to help you with your code then you gotta let me use it how I see fit!

And for the love of all things holy, quit calling restrictive licenses "free". This is a binary state, it is either free or non-free, and "you can only use this if you make less than X" or "only use this with other free software" or "if you make changes you have to share" are NOT FREE.

There. Thanks for reading. Stepping outside to yell at a cloud now. And get off my lawn.

Re:Gumroad is now open source by jasonlotito on Friday April 04, 2025 @09:18AM (#43581924)
> It's open source as the average person would understand it.

Factually, this is not true. Facts outrank everything else.