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Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @01:09AM (#43543043)
> he would've had a legal basis to prosecute Hillary Clinton for felonies

America is currently ann argument against popular democracy. Before we concede that electoral politics don’t work in a world with social media, maybe we can give increased prosecutorial discretion a chance. The alternative, after all, is just more authoritarian.

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @02:22AM (#43543433)
Are you prepared to give several Trump appointed judges prosecutorial discretion over who can run in the midterms and 2028?

The problem that prosecutorial discretion will have to overcome is selective enforcement, or the perception thereof. The right wing European media is claiming this was common practice across parties. Now I don't know the truth of it, but it is a hard thought to get out of ones head, and a hard negative to prove.

wrt Le Pen, I find it noteworthy that evey English news article I have read avoids describing the actual crime [1], Which does seem more substantial than 99% of the Trump cases.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/09/30/w...

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by jonathanstrange on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @03:47AM (#43543959)
This works differently in France. Americans need to stop comparing everything to their own country, your country not as great a democracy as you might think.
Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @11:36AM (#43548062)
I'm mostly talking about the US, and not claiming it is great.

That said, in what ways do you think France is different?

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by jonathanstrange on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @05:48PM (#43551681)
Accounting politicians for crimes is not a problem as long as the judicial system is sufficiently independent from the executive. It is my impression that the French justice system is more independent and better protected against the executive branch than the US justice system, but I admit that I'm not an expert on comparing the two systems and could be wrong. It's really just a hunch aggregated from what I've heard over the years.
Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:46PM (#43552069)
I don't know about France, but in the US, the prosecution falls under the executive, while the judges are independent.

This means the POTUS can decide who gets investigated and charged for a crime, and who doesn't get investigated and who gets charges dropped.

The executive can investigate its enemies, and ignore or drop charges for its friends.

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by guizmo on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @08:33PM (#43552670)
It is looks very similar in France and in the US to some extent. I copy a post I made somewhere in this thread as I think it can help here:

Prosecutors are formally under executive control but since 2013 the justice minister should not give orders on individual cases.

France has an additional layer of independence compared to the U.S. because of the juge d’instruction (investigating judge), who is supposed to be independent from the executive like the courts judges, unlike prosecutors.

I say in principle because judges are appointed in France and not elected (similarly to federal judge in the US from what I understood). The executive as some control through appointments and career advancements but they are not supposed to use it to sanction or reward the judges.

The effectiveness of these independence mechanisms remains a subject of active debate, as evidenced by the relatively recent changes made to them.

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by a_dabbler on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:22AM (#43545038)
The voting system (FPTP) in the US results in a two party system which isn't representative of a good democratic system imo. Considering all of the different political divides I don't think two parties sufficiently cover the spectrum of opinions/stances.
Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @09:10AM (#43546397)
> voting system (FPTP) in the US results in a two party system which isn't representative of a good democratic system imo

We have non-FPTP jurisdictions. They still default to partisanship. (The problem is probably too many elections, not enough reliance on appointment and selection by lot.)

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by rayiner on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:46AM (#43545605)
Quite the opposite! Democracy is working in America, whereas it’s in jeopardy in (some parts of) Europe. You’re confusing “democracy” with “liberalism.” Democracy is not about free trade, or protecting immigrants, or the like. It’s about people being able to vote to live in the kind of society they want. If people want to pull back on liberalism in certain areas that’s democratic. What’s undemocratic is saying that “you can vote for anything you want as long as it’s liberalism.”

There’s a reaction throughout the entire west to free trade and immigration. In America, a plurality of voters supported the guy who promised mass deportations and tariffs, and now they’re getting exactly what they voted for. Maybe they won’t like the results, maybe they’ll be thrilled with them. The results will simply inform the next vote. What’s deeply broken are european systems that are trying to maintain liberalism at the expense of democracy.

But not all the european countries. Denmark and Sweden have retrenched on liberalism in the area of immigration—Denmark’s youngest generation is now more Danish than the population as a whole—and have largely solved the political polarization over the issue. That’s democracy working very well.

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @09:06AM (#43546349)
> It’s about people being able to vote to live in the kind of society they want. If people want to pull back on liberalism in certain areas that’s democratic.

Sure. And when the Athenians recalled Alcibiades [1] or put Socrates to death, that was democratic. I’m not arguing it’s not democratic. I’m arguing those were self-destructive acts that show the system didn’t work.

Note that I’m making a distinctly illiberal argument. In that, I dovetail with Trump’s supporters.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by rayiner on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @10:24AM (#43547145)
But the system worked! Immigration and the economy consistently rank as voters’ two key issues. On immigration, the decades-long elite consensus was for more immigration, including illegal immigration. But voters successfully defeated that elite consensus. They voted for mass deportations, got a guy who has started doing mass deportations, and as of the latest Yougov/CBS polling, overwhelmingly approve of Trump’s deportation program (58% approve, 42% oppose): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/opinion-poll-trump-economy-tari....

Voters being able to override elite consensus to effectuate change to make the country more like what they want is the system working!

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by pcwalton on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @12:54PM (#43548992)
I notice that you've retreated to cherry picking polls on specific issues now that Trump's overall approval rating according to poll aggregators is negative (in record time, in fact, with the exception of Trump's first term).
Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday April 02, 2025 @02:45PM (#43560019)
> But the system worked! Immigration and the economy consistently rank as voters’ two key issues

If immigration were the only thing this administration were doing we wouldn’t be having this debate.

The system isn’t working. We’re deterministically heading towards a world where we’re poorer and less secure based on policies (tariffs on Europe, Canada and Mexico) and people (Lutnick, Hegseth) that weren’t ever brought up in the election. Even if that had been campaigned on, the fact that the majority chooses stupid policies is an indictment of electoral politics. If the system “working” leads to its own destruction, it doesn’t work.

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by mmooss on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @02:32PM (#43550028)
Essential and the most important part of modern democracy is freedom: Universal, individual human rights. It is the foundation of the US: 'All men are created equal and are endowed with inalienable rights ...', the land of liberty, home of the free, liberty and justice for all. The Constitution's limited remit to government, and the specific limits, are about freedom and self-determination.

And that's certainly liberal - that is the same foundation of classical liberalism and modern left-wing liberalism.

It's absurd to suggest otherwise; it's pointless arguments about verbiage. Nobody wants mob rule, nobody thinks of democracy without human rights and indvidual freedom, either scholars or the general public.

> It’s about people being able to vote to live in the kind of society they want.

Why should they get to decide en masse what people do individually? That's just dictatorhip of the majority, of the mob. Freedom is what the US and democracy are about.

> Democracy is not about free trade, or protecting immigrants, or the like.

It is; it's about freedom.

Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by leg0m4n on Saturday April 05, 2025 @01:44AM (#43591119)
you missed the most important part of the Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” you forgot by whom those right were endowed, by “the Creator”. It’s either this, or by the definition of it, you don’t have those rights.
Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by mmooss on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @02:30PM (#43550010)
Maybe we just need to stop quitting and capitulating, and commit to our liberty and self-determination. Prior generations committed their 'lives, fortunes, and honor'. We just need to fix social media, which will take an activated society.
Re:Marine Le Pen banned from running in 2027 and given four-... by MonkeyClub on Wednesday April 02, 2025 @07:08AM (#43555485)
> Prior generations committed their 'lives, fortunes, and honor'.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this.

We don't have honor as a social parameter any longer, so lives and fortunes lack the oomph of honor.

Granted, we also avoid the historically evinced drawbacks of honor-based societies, but we seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.