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Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by simonw on Monday August 06, 2012 @07:03PM (#4347779)
I've been having enormous trouble understanding the thinking behind the "We are proud to only accept Visa" marketing campaign. I simply can't understand how it could be viewed positively by any consumer - it's such an obviously anti-customer thing to do.

I've been trying really hard to understand why Visa would make such an obviously unfriendly and counter-productive decision. The only theory I can come up with is that their real customers are the banks, and this is their way of saying to them "We're so completely ruthless that you're better off doing deals with us than anyone else". Seems a bit far-fetched though.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by dangrossman on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:21PM (#4348011)
> I simply can't understand how it could be viewed positively by any consumer

Visa's market research suggests a significant increase in Visa usage and Visa brand value among consumers aware of their Olympic sponsorship (which has been ongoing since 1986, and already committed through the next 4 Olympics games):

> According to the U.S. Sponsorship Tracker, a Visa commissioned study following the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Winter Games conducted by Performance Research, an independent research company, Visa cardholders who were aware of Visa’s Olympic Games sponsorship claimed a 16 percent and nine percent increase in Visa card usage in Canada and the US respectively. The same report found Visa’s brand equity was 32 percent and 38 percent higher among consumers who were aware of Visa’s sponsorship in Canada and the US respectively.

http://corporate.visa.com/_media/olympic-games-media-kit/vis...

> I've been trying really hard to understand why Visa would make such an obviously unfriendly and counter-productive decision

The first Olympics game where Visa was exclusively accepted was Calgary 1988. This isn't a decision they just made.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by jellicle on Monday August 06, 2012 @10:44PM (#4348412)
>According to the U.S. Sponsorship Tracker, a Visa commissioned study following the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Winter Games conducted by Performance Research

When a company is paying for research about its own decisions, the research always comes back that the decision was wonderful, or that research firm doesn't get hired again.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by varikin on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:15AM (#4348692)
>or that research firm doesn't get hired again.

This is the key part. Research funded by biased parties can produce valid research and results. There is the case of the physicist that was skeptical of global warming that was funded by the Koch brothers to study global warming. As a scientist, at a well known college for physics, he was skeptical but not blinded by money/politics. His research changed is mind completely.

But, like you said, he won't be hired again by two brothers that are wealthily through oil.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by smussman on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:52AM (#4348902)
Out of curiousity, do you have a link to the study or a writeup? I'd love to read it.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by rrreese on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @03:36AM (#4349121)
Koch-funded climate change skeptic reverses course:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-kochfunded-climat...

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by varikin on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @05:57PM (#4352566)
Thank you. I was have a really hard time finding a link I felt was credible. I only know if it from seeing an interview on TV.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by thebigshane on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:05AM (#4348669)
Wouldn't they just be able to look at their own records to see any trends (or lack thereof)? Presumably Visa is investing multi-millions of dollars of into this, surely they expect to see a return on that investment. If the fail to see that return, surely they would stop. They haven't stopped. I'm thinking that the research firm was probably right.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by brazzy on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @05:32AM (#4349342)
Visa is not a person. The person who sponsored that campaign probably prioritizes his career over the RoI of the company.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by thebigshane on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:07PM (#4351993)
I doubt it was one person who decided, negotiated and implemented the sponsoring of this campaign. So what is your point? Does it really seem reasonable to you that no one would notice how entirely unprofitable (hypothetically) the investment is? Over the course of a dozen+ years!?
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by brazzy on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:33PM (#4352125)
It could quite easily be one high-ranking manager who decided and pushed through such a campaign, and now uses company money to pay for research that "proves" its success and enables him to brush off those who doubt it but lack similar clout.

This kind of thing is par of the course for company politics. But probably unlikely to persist this long.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by pyre on Monday August 06, 2012 @11:59PM (#4348650)
Just depends on whether or not the results are meant to public consumption. I find it hard that no one at Visa would want an honest study from time to time, but I can also easily believe that sometimes studies are commissioned with the end-goal being to justify an already set-in-store decision.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by jacalata on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:56PM (#4348109)
He wasn't asking 'why sponsor the olympics', he was asking 'why take the exclusive angle'. Saying 'they've been doing it for years' does not answer that.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by thebigshane on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:08AM (#4348672)
Saying "they've been doing it for years" implies that it probably works. That is the answer (well okay, it's his answer)
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by Deestan on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @06:15AM (#4349417)
That's basically a "Monkey Cage" answer.

http://paws.kettering.edu/~jhuggins/humor/banana.html

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by thebigshane on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:02PM (#4351972)
Funny but not very enlightening. This isn't a case of generations of companies still following the same pointless habits (wearing suits and ties, etc). If those monkeys were responsible for monitoring a return on a 700 million dollar investment, I think that one of monkeys would try to investigate the situation further. Also, I think science suggests humans are smarter than monkeys [citation needed].
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by apike on Monday August 06, 2012 @10:55PM (#4348444)
A lot of us in Vancouver really resented the "only accepts Visa" thing. It was particularly aggravating in Canada where most people pay with a bank debit card, not Visa or Mastercard.

That said, it's not surprising that the overall effect of the sponsorship was positive since refusing MasterCard and debit was only one small aspect of Visa's campaign. Reading about this again in London made me all riled up again, but Morgan Freeman's soothing voice will likely undo the damage soon enough.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by thaumasiotes on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:58AM (#4348912)
My bank debit card... IS Visa. I don't think I would have been able to get one that wasn't.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by apike on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @03:28AM (#4349109)
In Canada, debit cards are run by a not-for-profit venture founded by the major banks called Interac. Everybody's standard ATM bank card is usable as a debit card. This is the most common method of payment in the country.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by metachris on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:14AM (#4349198)
It's the same in Europe.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by corin_ on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:46AM (#4349253)
Not in the UK... most of our debit cards are Visa or MasterCard
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by lflux on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @06:23AM (#4349442)
Same in Sweden as well.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by vegardx on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @06:52AM (#4349490)
I think you are misleaded by the branding on your debit card. Most transactions are not going through Visa, but a third-party solution that the banks them selves run. I might be wrong, but I think Nets delivers the solution in most of northern Europe. They call it NetAxept.

This is a direct pay solution used with online terminals, the Visa/MasterCard-part of your debit card is just for offline transactions or credit.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by lflux on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @03:51PM (#4351912)
There are quite a few different payment processors here (Nets, PayEx, BABS, Dibs...), not really sure about how the backend works between banks. My card works in anything with a Visa logo, but there's no credit connected to it.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by Muzza on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @10:10AM (#4350144)
I don't get it. NetAxept appears to be some kind of payment processor for web shops; certainly not something a bank would use for its internal processing.

It would be the height of stupidity for Mastercard and Visa to allow banks to issue cards with their labels and then have these cards be part of some secret "strictly Northern Europe" Mastercard/Visa network. Talk about confusing the customers.

But this is all moot: I have both Mastercard and Visa debit cards issued in Sweden. They work perfectly well outside of Europe...

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by potkor on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @08:14AM (#4349670)
In Finland the banks recently dismantled the old debit card system and forced everyone onto the insecure (EMV based) and expensive Visa/MasterCard branded debit cards. You still sometimes see the old cards but banks have stopped issuing new ones.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by i386 on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:21AM (#4349212)
And Australia (EFTPOS)
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by linuxhansl on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:43AM (#4348759)
That is completely besides the point.

I'm sure people appreciate VISA's Olympic sponsorship, there is little question about this. Exclusive sponsorship if different from limiting the choices of vendors and customers.

People do not like being limited in their choices, I do not think that benefited them.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by nopassrecover on Monday August 06, 2012 @10:11PM (#4348329)
> Visa's market research suggests a significant increase in Visa usage and Visa brand value among consumers aware of their Olympic sponsorship.

Couldn't this be that heavy-Visa users notice the company's sponsorship and usage more generally? This doesn't really prove that Olympics sponsorship increases usage.

> The same report found Visa’s brand equity was higher among consumers who were aware of Visa’s sponsorship.

Again, couldn't it just be that the kinds of people who notice that Visa sponsors things are the kinds of people who already like Visa? This doesn't establish that sponsoring the Olympics helps Visa.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by roel_v on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:16AM (#4349201)
"Again, couldn't it just be that the kinds of people who notice that Visa sponsors things are the kinds of people who already like Visa?"

Could be, but it's highly unlikely that a company who does surveys as its core business doesn't know this and tries to control for it, or at least explain it in they methodology section of the report they deliver.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by pbreit on Wednesday August 08, 2012 @12:11AM (#4353853)
I'm not sure I even understand what is being reported. I have little doubt that the opposite could be demonstrated with equally valid numbers. And did they also survey for spectator displeasure?
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by dangrossman on Wednesday August 08, 2012 @12:14AM (#4353864)
If spectator displeasure was a problem on the scale Visa could care about, then brand equity among those surveyed would have gone down instead of up. Why would they care to survey that directly? What matters is whether the sponsorship is a net gain for the Visa brand or not. The research says it is, big time.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by VigUi7vv8G2 on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:25AM (#4348851)
Right, but being a Olympics sponsor is mainly something people find out about on TV, not by actually going to the games.

Where is the evidence that actually preventing people from using mastercard helps?

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by cs702 on Monday August 06, 2012 @07:31PM (#4347871)
Consumers learn something crucial from this marketing campaign: that American Express and certain other credit cards are NOT accepted by some merchants, so it's a good idea to get and always carry a Visa card -- by implication, the only card accepted everywhere.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by jiggy2011 on Monday August 06, 2012 @10:07PM (#4348319)
The problem is that everyone know that other cards are accepted everywhere apart from the olympics, or at least Mastercard is.

This is more like BMW deciding to sponsor the construction of a road and only allowing their cars to pass.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by brianbreslin on Monday August 06, 2012 @11:45PM (#4348613)
I've seen Lexus sponsor parking lots or garages at sporting events, and lexus owners get to park for free. everyone else pays full price
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by VigUi7vv8G2 on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:24AM (#4348847)
Yeah, but this is like: only allowing people with Lexuses to enter, everyone else... just can't get in.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by seabee on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @10:49AM (#4350332)
You can still pay by cash, no?
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by astrodust on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:28PM (#4350822)
Are those like coupons you can redeem for things? Many people have not used cash for years.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by zachkatz on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @03:32PM (#4351818)
Most people have never owned a Lexus.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by roee on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:04AM (#4348799)
And that's exactly the type of positive marketing that works! Give something, and people will like you.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by hkolk on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:30AM (#4349230)
In a rural town in the UK I tried to get some money of my Mastercard on a Visa-branded machine. Didn't work. A friend tried with a Visa card and that worked like a charm. It sounds more like a common practice in the UK.

Denmark had something similar with Visa as well. Apparently it works since I am now very likely to get a Visa-card next to my Mastercard for those just-in-case situations.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by UnoriginalGuy on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:53AM (#4349272)
That story makes no sense. We don't have "visa branded" cash machines. They're all run by third party merchants and they universally support something called LINK which allows all the major card vendors to hook in.

I'm sure your card failed to work but I doubt it had anything to do with a big Visa logo on the machine.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by corin_ on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:45AM (#4349252)
I can't think of a time in the last decade when I've seen a card reader or cash machine that didn't accept Visa and Mastercard (I'm in the UK).
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by cschmidt on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @07:32AM (#4349576)
Were you traveling to the UK? If so, then your card's fraud department probably just declined the card. They're super picky these days, you really need to call the card company now before you travel internationally.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by smsm42 on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @02:54AM (#4349029)
If you ever had AmEx (I do) you already know that, a lot of places in US and more in Europe do not accept AmEx. When I go to some place I don't know I usually take AmEx, Visa and Mastercard - one of each. It can be very useful in all kinds of weird situations - like when I had some ticketing machine in Europe that was sure every Visa has a chip and a PIN code (American ones of course do not) - but it gladly accepted AmEx without any codes. So variety helps :)

So, I'd say it indeed may be a good idea to have a Visa card - along with their competitor's cards.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by reidrac on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @07:20AM (#4349537)
I find that "the only card accepted everywhere" very amusing :) I spent 5 days in Berlin recently and I found lots of places that either were "cash only" or they only accepted "Maestro" cards.

I had two Visa cards that I couldn't use, so frustrating.

EDIT: typo

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by fleshgolem on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @08:22AM (#4349691)
Yup, credit cards are not really a thing in germany
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by danweber on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:46PM (#4348072)
the thinking behind the "We are proud to only accept Visa" marketing campaign

It's like "for your convenience."

"For your convenience, all toilets have been closed."

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by coffeegeek on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:36PM (#4348043)
"The only theory I can come up with is that their real customers are the banks"

Unlike Visa in the US, Visa Europe is still owned by its 3000+ member banks. It's only responsibility is to make its shareholders happy.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by jakeonthemove on Monday August 06, 2012 @07:08PM (#4347794)
In socialist Europe, banks own YOU! :-). But seriously, the banks screw with their customers so much over here that this is just another bump on the road. To me, "proud to only accept Visa" sounds like "F@#k you MasterCard and your users, too"...
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by andrewfelix on Monday August 06, 2012 @07:16PM (#4347820)
>In socialist Europe, banks own YOU!

Americans have a lot more personal debt than Europeans. 'In Free Market America, banks own YOU!' would be more appropriate.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by bdunbar on Monday August 06, 2012 @11:12PM (#4348507)
'In Free Market America, banks own YOU!' would be more appropriate.

But wrong. Or at least 'they own the unwary and dumb'.

I bank with a credit union, got rid of my credit cards in favor of debit, and working real hard to pay down my debt. Already I've bought two vehicles for cash.

Now, granted, they were not _great_ vehicles, but they run and they're paid for. Looking forward to paying _cash_ for a really _nice_ (but used) car in a decade.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by FreakLegion on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @12:50AM (#4348775)
Why get rid of your credit cards? As long as you pay the balances in full every month, a modest selection of credit cards can easily lower your expenses by 3%, if not more. You can also accumulate a fair bit of free spending by trading out old cards for new ones with signing bonuses. Think of it like a free, untaxed $3-4,000 bump in salary.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by bdunbar on Friday August 10, 2012 @12:17PM (#4366814)
Why get rid of your credit cards? As long as you pay the balances in full every month, a modest selection of credit cards can easily lower your expenses by 3%, if not more.

Why did I?

Because it was too easy to use credit, not pay the balance in full. The debt built up. Things got out of hand.

And because I really did not like dealing with the credit card folk, even when I was in their good graces. Too much complexity.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by lsc on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @02:14AM (#4348948)
untaxed? really? I thought you were supposed to report and pay taxes on all income.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by roel_v on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:22AM (#4349215)
Discounts are not income.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by lsc on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @11:06AM (#4350400)
hm. Interesting argument against the 'cash back' cards.

The context I've heard of people getting in trouble with this is when they used the card for business purchases and then used the discounts for personal purchases.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by ktizo on Monday August 06, 2012 @07:27PM (#4347859)
Here's some nice charts on this theme. http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/debt-britannia-with-16-...

You aren't doing as badly as you think.

[edit] I assumed you were based in america, but apparently you are in sydney, sorry for confusion and random assumptioness. However, this means that according to the first chart on the page I linked, you guys are doing worse than the americans on household debt. Not that I can point fingers from the uk, cos we are either screwed or up to something fiendishly smart. But if it is the latter, I have no idea what it is.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by einhverfr on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:44PM (#4348068)
Reading that my first thought was "Wow, British banks are screwed."

It would be interesting to see how that compares to Greece, Spain, Italy, and other more troubled EU countries. The EU situation suddenly seems a lot scarier to me financially.

I should add that Steve Keen's writings on debt are absolutely must-reads for anyone interested in macroeconomic outlooks especially because he discards Neoclassical models in favor of debt-based models.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by ktizo on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:59PM (#4348121)
I've been following Real-World Economics Review - http://rwer.wordpress.com/ - since they were the movement for a Post-Autistic Economics - http://www.paecon.net/PAEmovementindex1.htm - Steve Keen seems to crop up there quite a bit.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by einhverfr on Monday August 06, 2012 @09:07PM (#4348148)
Looks like a great couple of sites. Bookmarked.

Two of my favorite quotes by Keen from his presentations are:

"The one thing Neoclassical economists don't understand is Neoclassical economics."

And

"The Marxist economists hate me even more than the Neoclassicals, which is quite an achievement."

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by ktizo on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @07:42AM (#4349596)
You'd probably appreciate "Life Among The Econ" by Axel Leijonhufvud - http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/05/axe...
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by ktizo on Monday August 06, 2012 @07:24PM (#4347849)
Is probably research. First test what happens when you have exclusive payment areas for a limited time and see if anyone kicks off really badly and if the fallout from doing so costs more money than what you make. If not, roll out to more events to try and establish a new standard practice, while keeping a very close eye on social indicators and the bottom line.
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by dangrossman on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:09PM (#4347973)
Since Visa's been doing this since 1986, that's an awfully long test. They do quantify the results, though:

> According to the U.S. Sponsorship Tracker, a Visa commissioned study following the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Winter Games conducted by Performance Research, an independent research company, Visa cardholders who were aware of Visa’s Olympic Games sponsorship claimed a 16 percent and nine percent increase in Visa card usage in Canada and the US respectively. The same report found Visa’s brand equity was 32 percent and 38 percent higher among consumers who were aware of Visa’s sponsorship in Canada and the US respectively.

http://corporate.visa.com/_media/olympic-games-media-kit/vis...

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by ktizo on Monday August 06, 2012 @08:21PM (#4348008)
It's been enforcing these kind of competitor exclusion zones on card payments at major sporting events since 1986?

Ah.. Just looked it up. - http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1996/Visa-Will-be-Only-Credit-C...

OK. Fair enough. They haven't just miraculously turned into complete bastards on this, they were just complete bastards all along and the press happens to be making a fuss about it at the moment, just cos it is news with the word 'olympics' in it.

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by AJ007 on Monday August 06, 2012 @09:58PM (#4348290)
Just because consumers accepted something in the past does not mean they will accept it in the future.

For example, in the past when I found a flashy new b2b service I would grumble when I couldn't find a price list and continue my research. Now, when I visit a company's page and there are no listed prices, I immediately close the tab and forget about it.

Saying "We only accept Visa" is like saying "We only serve white people." Exclusive, yes. A reminder of ethnic and class privilege, yes. Desirable by any progressively minded individuals? Absolutely not.

A note about online payments when it comes to credit cards, I pretty much stopped using my Mastercards with the exception of Amazon because of that damn Securecode implementation. I think payment processors and providers who erect any restrictions or barriers will find them self quickly suffocated out by services who are going the other direction. (I'm one of the guys who believes within the next 5 years you'll just be able to walk out of most stores with a product and seamlessly be billed for it, uber style.)

Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by jarek on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @01:44AM (#4348887)
Before you go off about ethnic and class privilege, you did read the article and note that cash is accepted, right?
Re:Great work Visa, now I hate you by roel_v on Tuesday August 07, 2012 @04:19AM (#4349204)
Why let facts get in the way of a good old 'help help I'm being repressed! did you see him repressing me?' rant?