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Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by almostgotcaught on Monday March 24, 2025 @02:20PM (#43463917)
> The ideological games being pushed on children in state schools is different, but it's not entirely absent.

People say this all the time and it's facile. Yes ideology is everywhere and you cannot be completely free from it. But the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by econ on Monday March 24, 2025 @02:43PM (#43464137)
Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. Since the successfully indoctrinated believers won't let you get away with it it is not worth it. So much so that they never get to hear other versions of anything.
Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by almostgotcaught on Monday March 24, 2025 @03:33PM (#43464610)
> Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it.

This is some weird goalpost moving - I didn't say it's easy I said it's possible. Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology - it's literally against the rules.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by skyyler on Monday March 24, 2025 @03:52PM (#43464764)
>Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology

Martin Luther was pretty successful in his questioning.

But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he?

Well, I guess that could easily be described as "not easy".

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by almostgotcaught on Monday March 24, 2025 @04:11PM (#43464943)
You're again hitting the nail exactly on the head as to the difference: the Lutheran reformation gave way to Lutheranism, it did not actually reform the Catholic Church (cf the counter reformation). So again you see an instance where questioning foundational ideology from within is not possible.
Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by skyyler on Monday March 24, 2025 @04:28PM (#43465079)
I have a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to purchase indulgences nowadays than it was during Luther's time.

But luckily, I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by mullingitover on Monday March 24, 2025 @04:30PM (#43465095)
Arguably the entire hack created by protestantism was the infinite free indulgences "salvation by faith alone" glitch.
Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by skyyler on Monday March 24, 2025 @04:33PM (#43465133)
Okay, so you are admitting that Martin Luther had a measurable impact on the practices of the church, right?
Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by mullingitover on Monday March 24, 2025 @04:44PM (#43465226)
You seem to be saying that religions are open to having their dogmas questioned and then growing from that, something that they are famously not open to (kind of the whole idea of a dogma).

Obviously 'Not all religions,' etc. However the Catholic church is notoriously dogmatic. Usually the more you press a dogmatic group to change, the more they dig their heels in about it. It's only when the organization is wounded by a schism or massive loss of membership do they suddenly start getting word from heaven that God has changed his mind.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by skyyler on Monday March 24, 2025 @04:55PM (#43465328)
I asked you a very simple yes or no question, actually.

Your lack of answer to that question speaks a lot.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by kibwen on Monday March 24, 2025 @04:46PM (#43465242)
> But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he?

This is wildly underselling the consequences of challenging the church: two centuries of unrest and war that would eventually result in millions dead, amounting to a significant fraction of Europe's population.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by skyyler on Monday March 24, 2025 @05:01PM (#43465364)
Right, so contesting the church isn't impossible, but it isn't easy.
Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by econ on Thursday March 27, 2025 @06:51PM (#43499150)
If you are part of a community, be it a religion or [say] a sciencentific discipline, you have to do the ritual dance around the campfire. Not because it makes sense but because that is the way we do things around here. That one community will kill you and the other won't talk to you anymore doesn't matter for the result.

There are lots of different bible worshippers but there is only one academia. There might be small differences of opinion they all preach the same "proverbial" creation myth.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by MSFT_Edging on Monday March 24, 2025 @02:59PM (#43464295)
What textbook taught in the United States has anything with an ideological stance that isn't at the very least revisionist towards making the US look better?

Most history taught in the states already waters down the historical facts to make us look better.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by jncfhnb on Monday March 24, 2025 @03:17PM (#43464464)
Depends on how you characterize the War of Northern Aggression I suppose
Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by skyyler on Monday March 24, 2025 @03:29PM (#43464574)
Also depends on how you characterize the genocide of the natives.
Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by mmcdermott on Monday March 24, 2025 @05:54PM (#43465810)
> the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology.

This feels like an odd statement, given how many of the most repressive regimes in human history were or are secular. Maybe the "properly functioning" part is doing the heavy lifting, but if so, it makes the statement almost meaningless.

Re:Project Operation Whitecoat Military Human Experimentatio... by nsxwolf on Monday March 24, 2025 @05:55PM (#43465824)
You cannot question modern gender ideology in any public school around me.

All children are indoctrinated with something. There is a competition for who gets to do it.