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Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by roenxi on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:25AM (#43308504)
> Research has consistently shown he was right about layoffs: They’re damaging to companies...

The research is probably misleading. The damage was done to companies when the over-hired people who couldn't add enough value to justify keeping them employed. The layoffs are just when the damage is recognised.

It is like borrowing a huge amount of money, using 90% of it it to buy prawns and leaving them out to rot for a few days. The damage is now done, the borrowed money is lost. It won't be recognised for a while though. There is even enough left over to pay an interest payment or two to string everything along. But the damage is done.

A lot of people treat economics as though damage didn't happen unless someone acknowledges it. That isn't how it works. Not acknowledging that something is value-destructive just means more value is destroyed by the time people are forced by market forces to confront the truth.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by rainsford on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:52AM (#43310229)
I don't see much reason to think mass layoffs are typically the result of over-hiring rather than a reaction to changing circumstances that are different than when the hiring originally happened. The article opens with a perfect example, the constriction of the US air travel market following 9/11. The people most airlines fired as a result weren't "over-hired". Their hiring made sense at the time and they were fired when circumstances changed. I'd argue this is likely more often be the case than actual over-hiring, since it's easier for a company to see if they can actually utilize new employees now than it is for them to predict the future.

In cases like that, the layoffs really do seem likely to be damaging to the companies. If circumstances change for a company and they can no longer effectively use all their employees, the most obvious solution is to get rid of employees, but it then makes it far more difficult to recover when positive opportunities present themselves. I think companies trick themselves into believing that since hiring and firing employees is relatively quick, it's a good tool to adapt to changing circumstances in either direction. But that ignores the time it takes for a new employee to become fully productive and the increased difficulty/cost in hiring new employees if your company has a reputation as an unreliable employer. It also ignores the potential boost to productivity that can come from employee loyalty and job satisfaction and security.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by ghaff on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:04PM (#43311097)
The latter points are true. But it's also the case that radical reskilling for very different job roles (with possibly rather different market salaries and, honestly, different from many people's job preferences) is tough too. Probably hard to come up with reliable rules.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by trescenzi on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:37AM (#43308592)
This isn’t how all layoffs work though. Some, yes they are due to over hiring and a failure of management to plan. They are likely necessary for survival of the firm and generally last course of action. Although even those come with a cost to current and departing employees which harms the business.

But the ones being discussed in the article are the consistent ones. The ones you do while you’re ahead to make your balance sheet look better. Those come with a temporary balance sheet boost and all of the negative effects of any layoffs.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by gruez on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:43AM (#43309424)
>But the ones being discussed in the article are the consistent ones. The ones you do while you’re ahead to make your balance sheet look better. Those come with a temporary balance sheet boost and all of the negative effects of any layoffs.

This feels like a "no true scotsman" argument. The headline of the article is literally "Why layoffs don’t work", not "why consistent layoffs don't work". The only mention of "consistent" layoffs were when referencing Jack Welch's management style, but that was more of an attempt to argue that layoffs are bad by citing the worst possible example, than trying to introduce nuance between the types of layoffs. The studies cited also did not distinguish between the type of layoffs.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by trescenzi on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:15AM (#43309754)
Clickbait headlines aren't anything new. While a better headline like: "How the Layoff Culture that Started in the 80s and Spread to the Rest of Wall Street is Actually Harming Business's Long Term Prospects" would be better, punchy headlines like this one spur clicks and conversation as seen by this thread.

I believe we took different things from the piece and I imagine you'd disagree with my better headline. I understood the piece to be telling a story starting with Welch and Dunlap of how layoffs as a way to improve numbers actually damage those same numbers in the long term.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by roenxi on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:00AM (#43309110)
> But the ones being discussed in the article are the consistent ones. The ones you do while you’re ahead to make your balance sheet look better.

That has to be matched with a strategy of intentional overhiring though, and the damage is being done there. That is the insight that should be drawn from the research - intentionally doing something silly (in this case, overhiring) is a classic form of waste and economically destructive. Layoff or no layoff, the problem is the management team has set up a situation where they believe a big chunk of their workforce is unproductive.

This does raising the question of why boards and shareholders tolerate these clowns. To me the obvious answer being that the major central banks have a history of printing money and handing it out to asset owners, so hiring competent managers for said assets is a lot of trouble for limited gains - even weak managers are enough to drink from the money hose. But who knows, maybe the analysts think that a small amount of sillyness averts a greater problem.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by cutemonster on Monday March 10, 2025 @06:49PM (#43327027)
> That has to be matched with a strategy of intentional overhiring though, and the damage is being done there

No, doesn't have to. Looking at the article, sometimes they had hired the right number of people, but (new?) management decided to let people go because that looked better short term (saved money, higher profits), but was bad long term.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by andrewlgood on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:52PM (#43311736)
> But the ones being discussed in the article are the consistent ones.

I worked at GE when Jack Welch was there. First of all we never had a systematic firing of the bottom 10%. That is a myth. We ranked everyone each year and clearly identified the bottom 10% but they were not always fired. The manager did have to have a development plan for these individuals.

More importantly, GE did have consistent layoffs. I assert this was a good thing. I vividly remember asking an EVP at GE Capital when I first joined GE why we did this. It seemed inhumane. Wasn’t it better to try and fix the so-called ‘C’ players? His response fundamentally changed my view on hiring, leadership, and firing. He told me two things. 1) Hiring people is always a gamble. The best interview/onboarding processes will not produce 100% success. There will people that do not have the skills that are needed. There will also be people for whom GE is simply not a good cultural fit. 2) In good times, when a GE business unit is doing well, they always over hire. People working 50 hours a week want to work 40, process problems that have built up need to be addressed (similar to tech debt), etc. Over time this leads to bloat and inefficiency.

For these reasons, consistent layoffs make sense for the company. They also make sense for the employee. By not waiting for an economic downturn and then making dramatic cuts, the exiting employees would have an easier time finding the next job as odds are the economy would doing well. Particularly in the case where the person was not a good fit for the GE culture, they learned this and could find a better fitting role elsewhere. And GE was great on the resume back in those days (sadly not so today). If we waited for the downturn, then the exiting employees would be looking for a new job in a bad economy with everyone else who had just been laid off. Not a good situation.

Finally, an additional point I learned later by observing when and where we made headcount reductions. GE made many bets on new markets, new products, etc. We had to if we were to grow by 10% each year (GE Capital’s rigorous requirement for business and strategic plans). The successful GE leaders understood is was easier to grow revenue to achieve 10% net income growth than to cut expenses. Unfortunately, not all new business ventures worked out. In those cases, we had to make a decision to shut them down (all new ventures had off-ramps). As a result, some people were repurposed, but others had to be let go. I posit that is consistent with the tech approach of “fail early, fail often.” In industries with significant people required to try a new approach, the consequence of failing will be layoffs.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by int_19h on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:26PM (#43314550)
> The manager did have to have a development plan for these individuals.

What percentage of people on PIPs didn't leave the company within a year or two?

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by andrewlgood on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:34PM (#43316771)
My recollection is a very high percentage. Not clear what the alternative is. No action plans to help people improve their performance? Action plans also helped people understand their situation and allowed them to find other jobs while they were still employed at GE. For clarity, I never developed an action plan for someone who was then surprised to receive it.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by marto1 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:36AM (#43308980)
> A lot of people treat economics as though damage didn't happen unless someone acknowledges it.

This is what I call the TV effect. People are trained from an early age, by consuming media, to only construct what is "real" by what is announced. And it's not just economics, but all sorts of aspects of life.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by steveBK123 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:04AM (#43308767)
This would be more true of management did not play BS with the numbers constantly.

I worked at a firm that for 2-3 years straight would report great Q1,Q2,Q3 numbers.. tell employees it's looking like a good year. And then Q4 report a total wipeout loss that negated the quarterly earnings and swung the company to flat or a loss. Whoops, sorry, no raises, cutting bonuses.. and need to do some layoffs.

Behavior like this reminds us that the numbers are not real real in a scientific sense, but only in a relativistic accounting sense.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by no_wizard on Sunday March 09, 2025 @12:24PM (#43310626)
And to top it all off executives never have to eat the shit they caused in the same way the rest of the workforce at the company ends up having to
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by hommelix on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:42PM (#43313559)
Similarly when goals are linked to earnings and the company reports adjusted earnings... So changing the earnings by disregarding some expenses or some sales out of the calculation. The one in charge of this adjustment can play to allow or dismiss bonus for the year.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by steveBK123 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:39PM (#43314659)
I worked at one place that would frequently do "hiring freeze, consultants only!" thing followed by "fire all the consultants, FTEs only!" thing every other year. Clearly some OpEx/CapEx budget arb.

Also would do incredible things like mandate firm wide sending all consultants home for rest of year in early/mid December to save 3-4% lol. Did this at least twice in 5 years.

One year there was a fairly large failed projects with a dozen senior devs and they had nothing to do but also weren't fired because "we don't have budget for severance". This was in July. Guys started showing up to work in sandals and baseball caps.

This was all at a bank with over 100k employees.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by nativeit on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:24AM (#43309251)
Is it not incumbent on the company who hired the employees to ensure they are utilized sufficiently? Why imply it’s the worker’s fault for their own mismanagement?
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by gruez on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:56AM (#43309559)
>Why imply it’s the worker’s fault for their own mismanagement?

I'm not sure how you got the impression that OP implied it's the worker's fault. If during the 2021-2022 boom, some startup hired a bunch of junior programmers for $200k/yr, I think describing those people as "people who couldn't add enough value to justify keeping them employed" is a fair assessment of the situation. It doesn't imply that it's the junior programmer's fault, any more than it's not my "fault" if I'm asked to play a musical instrument with no prior experience, it sounding terrible, and people asking me to stop.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by nativeit on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:26AM (#43309269)
This all sounds like the post-mortem justifications of a sclerotic executive suite.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by woopsn on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:49AM (#43309047)
You don't know what you're talking about. People are fired when they can't add enough value to justify being employed. Sweeping industry-wide layoffs are different. Eg the "damage was done" to the aviation industry in 2001 due to plummeting demand, due (obviously) to new fears and hassle inhibiting travel; the damage currently being done to companies in the economy is from interest rates, inflation, trade uncertainty, stock manipulation, ...
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by austin-cheney on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:01AM (#43309111)
> You don't know what you're talking about. People are fired when they can't add enough value to justify being employed.

That depends upon the employer. Layoffs occur for a plurality of reasons and the persons selected for termination are selected by various different criteria that may include quotas or random selection.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by slackernews9 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:00PM (#43311830)
Look, honey, another nerd who thinks the meritocracy is real! Get the camera!
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by therealpygon on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:27AM (#43309273)
Some people will really do a lot of mental gymnastics in order to consistently blame workers instead of laying the real blame on poor leadership for company failures. If your company is failing because Tammy isn’t a “rockstar” at her job, you have a terrible company.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by fzeroracer on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:35AM (#43308574)
'The research is wrong because I said so' isn't exactly a compelling argument, and certainly not a strong enough one when you've been in the modern workforce long enough to recognize how badly layoffs are conducted at just about every company. I've seen enough 10x engineers get laid off to know that the idea that companies have any idea as to who is actually productive or not is just false.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by roenxi on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:51AM (#43308679)
1) But I included an actual argument and, furthermore, it assumed that the research is correct.

> I've seen enough 10x engineers get laid off...

2) That is sensible for the company. They have no idea how to use a 10x engineer, as can be detected by the fact that they're having layoffs. They don't know how to create value in the market and they're being forced into a position where they have to squeeze what they can out of what assets they have.

It isn't economically rational for them to employ 10x engineers in that sort of environment. The global and local optimum is to let those engineers go so they can do something valuable somewhere and keep some more 1x style engineers on the cheap.

If a company is having layoffs, that is the invisible hand of the market writing on the wall "THIS MANAGEMENT TEAM DOESN"T KNOW HOW TO MAKE MONEY AT THE MOMENT, STOP GIVING THEM IMPORTANT RESOURCES". That includes 10x engineers.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by Avicebron on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:13AM (#43308828)
Unfortunately as I've seen countless times, it's also writing on the wall to the management team "TIME TO MOVE ON CAUSE DAMAGE TO ANOTHER COMPANY", I don't know why we don't expect management's head on the chopping block. If a captain orders a course into an iceberg, idk why we can't just hang the captain and course correct.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by Eextra953 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:29AM (#43309915)
That's how I feel about it too, the times I've been around layoffs management and the executives all talk about a difficult economic environment and making the organization leaner by firing a bunch of IC's. Never once have I seen a C level say hey we steered the company in the wrong direction its time for new management or hey our CFO failed to communicate the economic environment and caused us to overspend so we're going to look for a new one.

I know it's ridiculous to expect them to blame themselves but the fact that we just accept this lack of accountability from executives/management in the corporate world is insane to me.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by ghaff on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:10PM (#43311170)
Execs go on to "pursue new interests" or "spend more time with family" all the time. They may get pretty good packages to do so but it absolutely happens.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by SJC_Hacker on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:50AM (#43310202)
Because the captain owns the ship. Or is the best buddy of the person that owns the ship, and can blame subordinates in closed-door conversations.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by Muromec on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:01AM (#43309118)
Because nobody orders hanging themselves.
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by fzeroracer on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:13AM (#43308829)
> 2) That is sensible for the company. They have no idea how to use a 10x engineer, as can be detected by the fact that they're having layoffs. They don't know how to create value in the market and they're being forced into a position where they have to squeeze what they can out of what assets they have.

Okay, now explain why every company is encountering these issues where they're frequently laying off people and are unable to create value. The frequency of layoffs is diametrically opposed to your thesis because otherwise companies would behave in a way to reduce layoffs. Such as hiring fewer employees and encouraging longer term retention.

> If a company is having layoffs, that is the invisible hand of the market writing on the wall "THIS MANAGEMENT TEAM DOESN"T KNOW HOW TO MAKE MONEY AT THE MOMENT, STOP GIVING THEM IMPORTANT RESOURCES". That includes 10x engineers.

This is basically the Just World fallacy but applied to the free market. If something occurs then it's justified as a perfectly rational action of the invisible free hand of the market. In reality layoffs are rarely conducted by the people most equipped to do them, but via a mandate from heaven that you must cut your team for the sake of Number even if you're one of the most efficient teams in the company.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by brigandish on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:25AM (#43308903)
> now explain why every company is encountering these issues where they're frequently laying off people and are unable to create value.

Creating value is hard.

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by no_wizard on Sunday March 09, 2025 @12:30PM (#43310699)
Seemingly executives being held accountable is even harder, as it rarely happens

Edit: Please reply with concrete evidence of widespread accountability of executives

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by walleeee on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:31PM (#43315050)
The trick, of course, is in distinguishing

> THIS MANAGEMENT TEAM DOESN"T KNOW HOW TO MAKE MONEY AT THE MOMENT

from

> THIS WHOLE INDUSTRY IS FAKE

or, worse,

> YOUR SOCIETY HAS REACHED THE INFLECTION POINT OF A YEARS-, DECADES-, OR PERHAPS CENTURIES-LONG PONZI SCHEME. SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH

Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by slackernews9 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:59PM (#43311812)
Mmm maybe they shouldn't have hired them in the first place then. Ever think of that, you miserable waste?
Re:Why Layoffs Don't Work by Fargren on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:18PM (#43312023)
I have tried and failed to understand what is meant by "layoff due to overhiring", in the context of Software Engineering. When an engineer is employed in a successful project, they are incredibly profitable. A handful of engineers can write and maintain products worth millions of dollars. Big companies, which are the ones we discuss when talking about "overhiring" should be capable to find or create projects where an engineer will be at least modestly profitable. And having an employee creating a small amount of profit, who might eventually be moved to something that's better, is certainly more profitable than firing him and paying severance.

Note that here I'm talking about firing good performers because you have "too many" of them. Firing bad performers because the estimated cost of training them is not justified, I can understand.

The only explanation I found satisfying is that investors heuristically care about profit per capita(ppc) as well as total profit, and employees who don't produce _enough_ profit reduce ppc and thus investment to point the opportunity cost of firing them aligns. You'll make investors happy, which will raise valuation, more than what you are losing from the lost profit. But this is not "rational" in a full information economic sense. It's essentially the company virtue signaling that they are capable to fire if they had to, even at the cost of actual dollars.