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Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by HenryBemis on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:05AM (#43265506)
Nope. Also you don't want one of these anchors be anywhere near a submarine.

We cannot prevent it, we can only detect it and (try to) identify who did it. The planet (some special interest areas) are constantly being monitored (satellites, surveillance drones) and when large ships are not being 'naughty' (switch of transponders) it's relatively easy to put two and two together.

As a side-note, Russia's playbook it to cause small and frequent sabotage(s). Small enough to not cause massive retaliation (i.e. it forces someone to destroy their railroad infra by causing thousands of derailments within one hour), and frequent enough to cause actual damage.

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by Telemakhos on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:41AM (#43265775)
I wonder if any EU nation has put together a maritime warning system based on multiple inputs like transponder signals and satellite/UAV imagery. Except for imagery interpretation it wouldn’t even need AI, just check for anomalies like a ship off course or turning off its transponder.
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by theshrike79 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:18AM (#43265586)
Basically Russia's tactic is to spread FUD, but in the real world.

Small sabotage attempts at water towers, power plants etc. Nothing actually happens but it gets in the news and people think something COULD have happened.

It keeps people stressed a bit all the time and they start wanting things to go back to "normal" at any cost - even by letting Russia keep the bits of Ukraine they assaulted.

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by marcosdumay on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @12:13PM (#43269424)
> Nothing actually happens but it gets in the news and people think something COULD have happened.

Most likely, they prop it as a huge win domestically, so that the public keeps thinking they are winning and become easier to placate.

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by FirmwareBurner on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:12AM (#43265556)
>We cannot prevent it

Then why don't these sabotages happen in US waters if it's so easy to get away with it?

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by ahoka on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:47AM (#43265814)
It was even easier to buy the US government.
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by exDM69 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:36AM (#43265729)
All of the well documented cases of the past few years have occured in international waters.
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by HenryBemis on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:15AM (#43265567)
If you want to piss someone off do you go for the black belt dude carrying a shotgun or (for the same amount of damage) a 5yo kid?
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by FirmwareBurner on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:18AM (#43265583)
So then why am I wrong when I suggest if EU's navies were stronger then sabotages would go down?
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by mrweasel on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:36AM (#43265728)
Because the EU has a very different reaction pattern and overall resources. It was never a question about downing ships that are sabotaging cables.

Neither the EU countries, nor the US have enough ships to patrol or escort every civilian ship that happens to parse over an undersea cable.

Assume that the Russian shadow fleet starts targetting US cables. What would, could, the US do? The US government could easily retaliate by simply opening the US weapons depos to the Ukrainians. Target US infrastructure and Ukraine gets whatever it wants. The EU can't really do something similar.

Technically you're not wrong, if the EU navies where large enough, they could just escort every single civilian ship, but that's not realistic.

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by willvarfar on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:32AM (#43265698)
its not about hard power necessarily, but soft power. If the EU united politically and made these harassment attacks consequential then they would stop.

E.g. perhaps something along the lines of prison for captains who were 'derelict in duty', rewards to crews who grass and seizing ships that, by dragging anchors 'by accident', have proven themselves unseaworthy etc.

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by benterix on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:39AM (#43265760)
I believe something like this will happen, sooner or later. For now, it's not easily to organize as the crew can always use the excuse "oh, this was unintentional" but charging them with the cost of repair plus additional penalty could be a good starting point.
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by mschuster91 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @08:24AM (#43266089)
> but charging them with the cost of repair plus additional penalty could be a good starting point.

Good luck enforcing that. The "shadow fleet" ships all operate under flags of convenience and ownership is hidden behind layers upon layers of shell companies.

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by willvarfar on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @09:10AM (#43266589)
If the fines and damages are not paid then perhaps the ship and its cargo are liquidated?
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by mschuster91 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @11:48AM (#43269059)
The problem is, the oil tankers are single wall, shoddily maintained, probably contaminated with all sorts of nasty stuff and with barely any history records. These things are effectively floating time bombs - assuming you can find a buyer for the seized cargo given the lack of paperwork in the first place, you need to sell the ship for scrap because it's nowhere near seaworthy (remember: single wall, no Western insurer will handle that), and that costs a loooot of money if you are a Western country and can't just haul it off to Alang [1] or whatever place and let others deal with the fallout.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56196069

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by mschuster91 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @08:22AM (#43266068)
Because the US has a pretty sizable naval fleet of the US Navy plus US Coast Guard, extensive surveillance capabilities due to the "war on drugs", the jurisdiction and responsibilities are relatively clear, and outside of the 12-mile zone the cables simply are too deep to be affected by anchor dragging.

In contrast, the North and Baltic sea are a hodgepodge of individual nations' 12-mile zones, the Baltic Sea operates under an entirely different set of agreements that guarantee free passage, and it's not really deep so submarine infrastructure like cables can be hit by anything from anchors to divers with explosives.

Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @08:35AM (#43266184)
Because Russia is getting the US on their side at the moment, sabotaging their stuff would damage that relationship. Russia and the US are not enemies at the moment.
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by deadbabe on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @10:59AM (#43268339)
If Russia and the United States are no longer enemies, then who is their enemies?
Re:'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cable... by ahartmetz on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:48PM (#43271365)
Not paying attention? Every European country except Hungary and Serbia, for starters.