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Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by webdever on Monday March 03, 2025 @07:28PM (#43248605)
As someone who works on both I don't notice a difference. Mac sucks just as much as Windows (or visa versa). There's things each does better and things each does worse.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by michaelt on Monday March 03, 2025 @08:02PM (#43248904)
Once people start saying "forced to use [...] for work" you've got to analyse platforms from a different angle.

Namely: How good is this platform after Corporate IT cheaps out on hardware, and loads as much 'security' crapware as possible?

On Windows, there are incredibly cheap laptops available, and corporate IT has loads of crapware like antivirus and crowdstrike and profiles and enterprise endpoint management to slow it down.

On Mac, there aren't any cheap hardware options, and there's a medium amount of "security" crapware.

On Linux, corporate IT let you manage it yourself, because they don't know how to. They can't develop the skills either, because anyone who can manage Linux gets promoted out the set-up-new-users-laptops department.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by wl on Monday March 03, 2025 @09:43PM (#43249657)
Or at some point, corporate IT bans desktop Linux because they can’t manage it.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by userbinator on Monday March 03, 2025 @10:13PM (#43249850)
Linux users then start using Windows VMs to contain the worst of it.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by thebytefairy on Monday March 03, 2025 @11:20PM (#43250244)
Great point. I use both Mac and windows. Love my windows pc, but I have certainly used corporate windows laptops that make me want to throw them out the window - minutes to boot, minutes to open anything, etc. between Mac and windows, they've each got their pros and cons but nothing that would make me choose one over the other.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by ABCpickD on Monday March 03, 2025 @08:24PM (#43249040)
The answer with any discussion of this nature is to immediately disregard any and all answer that doesn't come in, unprompted, with an explanation.

Which is about 90% of the comments here. Not a joke. I have counted 18 and see only 2 with specific gripes. Worthless comment section. (Sorry, but I did include yours too)

I was 16 when I first met the first big "Mac is better than Windows" argument in person. I asked why, and they mentioned a number of things that didn't feel relevant to the people at the table, but the one that stood out was a particular feature that was indeed quite useful. Well, I didn't know how to respond at the time, but as soon as I got home, I checked with windows and the feature was right there.

I don't think they were wrong for their preference. In fact, back then there was a lot of major differences in the workflow for these OS that isn't as big nowadays, specially if you're someone who can actually use google for more than 20 seconds. But the interaction proved to me the importance of being able to back your stance, because, if you don't, you may as well be just another 16 year old idiot with 0 technical or practical knowledge of the stuff that dictated your preference. They don't learn how to resolve their problems with them either, if they hide the reasons from others. So, again, worthless - take up screen space that could have better comments, while informing nothing and helping no one.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by gxs on Monday March 03, 2025 @09:10PM (#43249402)
You alluded to this but I wanted to emphasize that a lot of this is just legacy baggage in terms of reputation that windows will have to carry for a long time

I think that when people talk about how shitty windows is compared to Mac/apple they are talking about stuff that was probably true at some point

For many, memories of using windows include blue screens of death, programs crashing often and windows itself crashing often. On top of that, windows was a cesspool for a hot minute while Microsoft got its act together and put better security in place to address malware as the internet got popular.

These are obviously not the same, not nearly as bad as they were back then

I mostly enjoyed windows, and to a lesser degree Linux until a few years ago when an employer made me switch to Mac - which for the sake of my brain’s plasticity I readily embraced

The main differences I noticed at the time were: a much better window manager, a much saner way of installing applications, an overall hard to explain smoothness along with the ability to bring over some of my favorite little Linux tools

Fast forward to today and it’s really just a matter of preference. Mac helped Linux a ton, but nowadays they are all so customizable that you can more or less achieve what you’re trying to do most of the time on any of them

Today, I use all three out of necessity - Mac and Linux for work, windows for gaming, but I can surely tell you that overall my best decision was to just not get involved in holy wars lol

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by mindok on Monday March 03, 2025 @09:32PM (#43249585)
What did it for me was a period of: “I see you are delivering an important presentation. Let me force install an update and reboot three times. Right now.” I’ve spent too long watching reboots to have Windows in my life for my limited time on the planet.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by rsch on Monday March 03, 2025 @11:26PM (#43250271)
Yeah one wart about Windows is that you always have to lookup these weird registry hacks after getting a fresh install. Disabling this automatic reboot was one of them. Otherwise that would make your computer completely useless for things like

- gaming - watching movies - presentations - anything where you want to let some calculation run unattended for a few hours - anything where you really don't want your PC to shut down unexpectedly while you’re working…

Well that covers pretty much everything I guess.

And to add insult to injury, Windows 10 for a while took away the ability to Update & shut down. It’d go into some sort of hybrid sleep so you’d keep getting a reboot prompt right after starting up again.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by abhpro on Monday March 03, 2025 @08:55PM (#43249278)
Damn you're worked up. Some of my gripes with Windows come down to peripherals, where I'll spend a lot of time troubleshooting why my bluetooth device or speakers or mic don't work. There also seems to be no way to bypass using a password or PIN on startup without changing the registry. I'd like my computer to just stay on at all times so I can remotely connect to it, but what do you know, a forced update caused it to restart, and because it requires a passeord to get to the desktop I have no way of getting Parsec to connect. Yeah I tried to disable automatic updates but nothing seems to stick. Why is the mic on my PS5 controller connecting and disconnecting ten times a second. Ok let me just try to unpair the controller, oh it just... won't unpair.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by genewitch on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:53AM (#43252579)
Are the ps5 controllers supported without having to buy software? If not, then I sarcastically say "I'm shocked that a competitor's peripheral works poorly on their product"

Because why wouldn't it work poorly?

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by bee_rider on Monday March 03, 2025 @08:58PM (#43249307)
They are totally different.

Macs come working. When something breaks, it is impossible to fix, because they didn’t include a button to fix it. But it comes working!

Windows PCs come broken out of the box, but the user adapts and eventually gains a pile of workarounds, which is sort of like the windows equivalent of a UX.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by resonious on Monday March 03, 2025 @10:01PM (#43249784)
I'll somewhat echo this. I think simply switching puts the new OS at a huge disadvantage, because not being used to something can make it seem bad.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by int_19h on Monday March 03, 2025 @10:26PM (#43249922)
Until fairly recently, I would have agreed, but Microsoft is actively enshittifying Windows now by pushing things like cloud-only logins and ads in Start while simultaneously removing configurability (e.g. vertical taskbar was removed in Win11). I'm not a fan of macOS, but at least Apple is not all in on ads the way Microsoft seems to be these days.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by genewitch on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @05:00AM (#43252628)
I don't have a cloud login. I log into windows with a windows user account. I don't have ads in start, and i can make my taskbar vertical.

literally everything you said was false, but i can only disprove a majority of it with a single screenshot

https://i.imgur.com/XR1aj5b.png

not only no ads in start, no ads anywhere, ffs

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by int_19h on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @06:05PM (#43260698)
Everything that I described above, I observed personally. The no-vertical-taskbar thing has been an open issue in the tracker for many years; if it works now, I'm glad to hear it.

Regarding local accounts, it is supported by Windows, but the installer will straight up refuse to let you create such an account now (so you have to install using a cloud account and log into it at least once to create a local account). Previously, there used to be workarounds like installing without Internet, or certain incantations you could do in the "recovery" terminal during installation, but they have been killed off one by one. If you haven't seen this yourself, it just means that you haven't installed Windows 11 recently.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by genewitch on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:14PM (#43262201)
Just to let you know i am booting a VM to install windows 11 while recording with OBS studio. Check this space for updates. I'll admit if i am wrong.

looks like this is correct. I didn't have to do this before, so there's some software switch in the iso i have that triggered a "must update" - which makes sense.

Not to shift the goalposts, but you can disable the microsoft login after you set it up. I'm 99% sure that apple and google both require you to give them a username and password, as well.

I am getting the 24H2 disk image now. The one i was using is `Win11_22H2_English_x64v2.iso` - which is real old. It makes sense to me that microsoft wouldn't want you to use an old installer without being connected to the internet.

The download is probably going to take longer than my edit timeout, if so and anything changes about my comment i'll make a reply

found this https://github.com/memstechtips/UnattendedWinstall while i'm waiting. Says it bypasses the microsoft login.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by int_19h on Thursday March 06, 2025 @06:37PM (#43286131)
> I'm 99% sure that apple and google both require you to give them a username and password, as well.

I have no idea about Google, but with Apple, they require you to create a local account when installing. After that, the Settings app will pester you to link it to your Apple ID, but this can be ignored, and only shows up when you are in Settings on your user account page.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by genewitch on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @12:30AM (#43263211)
you're wrong. Kind of.

https://youtu.be/b1OGTumhFEA

specifically https://youtu.be/b1OGTumhFEA?t=2091

i installed windows 11 without a cloud login. Without a CD key. I actually ran the windows installer 3 times since you commented and i first replied. So i kinda lost track of what it was doing this time - i didn't notice it said it was going to reboot before the screen went black, i missed that it was waiting for input with the language selection. But i didn't edit the video at all, so you can scrub around and make sure. Ignore my dig at the end, like i said, i installed windows 3 times.

https://github.com/memstechtips/UnattendedWinstall you put the XML file in the iso. well, that's what i did. they have an automated thing that makes a bootable USB stick but i don't need that. I actually have a microsoft account because i use the xbox for windows and copilot. I don't use it to log in to windows - and even if i reinstalled i'd use the regular ISO and log in and then dis-associate my account with my windows install after it finished installing, as microsoft says you can do inside the installer

screenshot https://i.imgur.com/DGJgf87.png

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by genewitch on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @11:24PM (#43276415)
I gotta say i completely understand microsoft doing this, and had i been in the voting meeting where this was decided i probably would have voted to have the default be "cloud login" - the average person isn't going to be able to do anything if the forget their password, short of taking the computer to best buy to have it wiped and reinstalled (or whatever). in the video link, you can see it ask me security questions, which we all probably know are a poor way to ensure continuous access.

So this "drop an xml file on the iso" is proof positive that i take full responsibility for the data on this operating system - if i forget my password and my security questions, i'm locked out. period. Microsoft can't help because i told them i was smarter than the average user.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by int_19h on Thursday March 06, 2025 @06:39PM (#43286149)
The question isn't the default but rather the ability to opt out. And no, "drop XML on your ISO image" is not an acceptable bar for that.

But, more importantly, it's not a given that this will continue working onwards. As things are, there have already been three different ways to force the installer into letting you use a local account, the most recent one of which involved using the recovery terminal when booted from ISO - that's already way past most users. And yet Microsoft methodically killed each and every method every time, so I fully expect your suggested workaround to stop working. They seem to be very determined to ensure that no "non-enterprise" version of Windows lets people do that.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by genewitch on Thursday March 06, 2025 @09:26PM (#43286956)
what do you reckon it costs microsoft to support people that "opted out"? what amount of legal boilerplate would indemnify Microsoft against lawsuits over lost data because someone chose to opt out?

If the only option is to modify the installer the only people who are going to opt out are the sort of people that understand that microsoft has no responsibility to our data, and pretending they do is silly. It's pure CYA from Microsoft.

If you personally don't like it, then use their automated thumb-drive creation tool (at that same link) to make a new bootable USB stick that installs with the "opt out". I modified the ISO because i was installing on a Virtual Machine. If i was gunna do it on metal i'd use a USB stick because all my optical drives are USB and not that fast.

I don't think we disagree, i think we're coming at this from different sides. I don't expect microsoft to spend more money than they have to.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by int_19h on Saturday March 08, 2025 @07:56PM (#43305107)
I need to remind here that the very notion of a cloud account didn't exist for literally decades in the past, and I don't recall anyone suing Microsoft about losing a password etc. The legal angle for such things is firmly covered by EULAs, anyway - I worked for Microsoft for 15 years, and I can assure you that the lawyers there are very adept at such things. And then, of course, Apple clearly doesn't have any legal issues despite only having local accounts on macOS even today. Nor are cloud accounts free of legal issues themselves, what with GDPR etc. In fact, I'm pretty sure that cloud accounts are more "legal heavy" on the whole.

I would believe that it was purely about costs if they simply removed the checkbox from the installer but still left the command line workaround - that is plenty sufficient to ensure that the user "understands that Microsoft has no responsibility", and generally to prevent the clueless from shooting themselves in the foot. But given that even such advanced techniques were removed shortly after they were discovered, I'm certain at this point that it is a concerted effort to drive all non-enterprise users towards cloud accounts. And given that Microsoft is heavily investing into ads, and generally has a Google envy for a very long time now, I think that it any product decision that clearly correlates with more ability to track users and collect their data is likely to be at least partially motivated by that, just as it is in case of Google.