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Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by theoryofx on Friday February 28, 2025 @03:47PM (#43210455)
Your statement doesn't make sense.

Most Americans do support Israel and are very opposed to Putin and Russia.

Check the polls.

Which is why it's suspicious that JD Vance and Trump seem so afraid to upset Putin.

The idea that Russsia could have compromising information on one or both of them is entirely plausible. It's a way politicians have been controlled for literally thousands of years. J. Edgar Hoover controlled every US president for fifty years with this one simple trick.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by shihab on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:07PM (#43210894)
61% Americans opposed sending weapons to Israel. They got sent anyway [1]. Similarly at world stage, American govt had to bring out the veto card 49 times in Israel's defense- it was alone against the world, even all of it's strongest European allies [2].

[1] https://www.scribd.com/document/740568401/Cbsnews-20240609-S.... Question No 52.

[2] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/49-times-us-has-used-veto...

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by theoryofx on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:37PM (#43211606)
Neither of these points contradict the fact that Americans very broadly support Israel and are opposed to Putin and Russia. Of course there are varying degrees of support on any specific issue.

Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by ForOldHack on Friday February 28, 2025 @05:15PM (#43212318)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-isra...

Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza

Approval has dropped from 50% to 36% since November

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by skyyler on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:47PM (#43211806)
>Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is.

Whataboutism.

When China starts bombing hospitals, let us know.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by theoryofx on Friday March 14, 2025 @05:12PM (#43367357)
Pointing out a legitimate double standard is not "whataboutism" in the least. Either you have principles that apply equally or you do not.

China sterilizing and and enslaving a million Uyghurs isn't bad enough to warrant your condemnation?

We have different values.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by rayiner on Friday February 28, 2025 @03:54PM (#43210608)
Most people also want a negotiated end to the war: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/HHP...

Americans aren’t wiling to invest in what it would take to win the war. So Trump has to break Zelensky’s spirit so there can be a settlement.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by munk-a on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:15PM (#43211110)
There are several (and a few directly conflicting) polls in that document which I think reflects realty - most people haven't come down hard on stances involving Ukraine and remain flexible. As an example: "Do you favor or oppose Donald Trump announcing direct U.S.-Russia negotiations to end the war in Ukraine?" 60% in favor, but "Do you favor or oppose the Trump administration leaving Ukraine’s leaders out of negotiations with Russia to end the war in Ukraine?" 41% in favor. Additionally 57% oppose territorial concessions (which Trump has forced to be on the table) and 66% favor US security guarantees (which Trump has so far demurred on and tried to foist off onto the EU).

To me, at least, it's pretty clear that the negotiations are not in line with the will of the American populace as territorial concessions, resource concessions, no security guarantees and no multi-lateral opposition force to Russian expansionism have seemed like priorities to the current administration.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by ericmay on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:16PM (#43211121)
Agreed - most people would basically like to see an end to the war, which is what is broadly envisioned by a "negotiated end to the war".

But I'd question your assumption that Americans aren't willing to invest what it would take to win the war (depending on what a victory entails) and instead I'd suggest that this assumption needs a bit more research. I for one am very happy to see our tax dollars be used to support Ukraine, primarily because I think it's an investment in preventing a more expensive war in the future. It's unfortunate because we are basically just incurring a cost we didn't want to incur, but at the end of the day this is just the hand we're dealt with.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by watwut on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:15PM (#43211107)
Americans are supporting Russia now. Not just not helping Ukraine to save money. USA leadership is actively and openly supporting Russia.

USA does not have to do that, USA want to do that. They could stay away, they could support Ukraine. USA choice however was to support Russia.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by redeeman on Friday February 28, 2025 @08:50PM (#43214670)
could you perhaps give a few non-imaginary examples of this?
Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by cycomanic on Friday February 28, 2025 @09:15PM (#43214883)
How about saying Ukraine started the war, calling Zelenskiy a dictator (while refusing to call Putin one), saying Ukraine needs to give up land to Russia, calling for elections in Ukraine (again crickets about Russian elections), calling for improved economic relationships with Russia, while at the same time trying to force Ukraine into a ridiculous "deal" where they give up all their natural resources for essentially nothing... Can I stop?
Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by digitaltrees on Friday February 28, 2025 @09:40PM (#43215096)
The fact that we have to point this out is so frustrating. My whole family is buy the Russian propaganda entirely. And these basic facts don’t make it through their eco chambers. Worse any evidence is dismissed as fake news. I don’t think America can come back from this. Russia won the Cold War.
Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by brookst on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:09PM (#43210955)
That may be the game theory, but the reality is it will galvanize non-US support for Ukraine while further isolating the US from historic allies.

Europe cannot let Putin win. It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets.

So instead, the US will either be neutral or supporting Russia. Not a great outcome for anyone except Russia.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by rayiner on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:14PM (#43211072)
It’s a great outcome for americans, who don’t care what happens in europe. If europe could handle its own business Trump and his voters would be thrilled.
Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by xorcist on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:37PM (#43211609)
And the US did not have interests in Ukraine? As if the past two decades never happened?
Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by rayiner on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:52PM (#43211914)
The US had no interests in Ukraine, it had no interest in Iraq, it had no interest in Kuwait, it had no interest in Vietnam, etc.

Ukraine was a member of the Soviet Union since 1917. Was it hurting America to not have Ukraine as an “ally” that whole time? Clearly not!

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by xorcist on Friday February 28, 2025 @06:27PM (#43213211)
Not sure if sarcasm or some type of counterfactual history?

It does not matter how we ended up here, but we have an obligation to select for the least bad outcome.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by creato on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:38PM (#43211635)
It would be understandable to step back from Ukraine. There's a reasonable argument to be made there. I disagree, but I can understand the position.

It's not understandable to support Russia and say things like Ukraine started the war. That's just pure ignorant bullshit.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by rayiner on Friday February 28, 2025 @10:03PM (#43215287)
It's a typical garbled Trumpism. But what do you know about the history of the end of the Cold War? You knew that the U.S. assured Russia at the time that NATO would not expand to Russia's border, did you not? https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...
Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by dwattttt on Friday February 28, 2025 @06:58PM (#43213600)
And people don't want the government anywhere near their lives, until people with big sticks start poking at them instead.

The US populace can stick its head in the sand & say the rest of the world doesn't need them, but what if a superpower starts snapping up that rest of the world?

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by treis on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:46PM (#43211789)
>It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets.

Poland would wipe the floor with Russia.

Re:Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting by vFunct on Friday February 28, 2025 @04:46PM (#43211803)
Harvard-Harris poll have a well known right wing bias, enough so that Harvard students are calling to disassociate from them. They’re especially flagrant in how they lead on the poll respondents. For example, they use Israel vs Hamas instead of Israel vs Palestinenin their poll questions.

A more neutral and far more informative and useful poll is YouGov-Economist poll. Their methodology is based on app polling instead of phone polling. They subdivide their responses based on demographics, and they poll every week, often repeating the same questions to gauge trends for very detailed analysis.

Wish more pollsters were like YouGov.