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Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by piyuv on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:38AM (#43128697)
This can set a dangerous precedent. Now why wouldn’t any country demand the same, basically eliminating Advanced Data Protection everywhere, making user data easily accessible to Apple (and therefore governments)?
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by ziddoap on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:42AM (#43128759)
The choice was either eliminate it now (globally, via introduction of a backdoor) or eliminate it in the UK (but keep it globally).

So, perhaps this is a bit of a dangerous precedent, but it was the least-bad option.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by philsnow on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:54AM (#43128945)
That’s a false dichotomy.

Another choice, however unpalatable to all parties, would have been for Apple to stop doing business in the UK.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by netdevphoenix on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:23AM (#43129360)
Why do pro-privacy tech folks on here act like Apple is some charity? Apple is a business. It won't fight a citizen's fight on your behalf. It is on citizens to use their democratic power to ensure their representatives act as the voting base wants. Apple's goal is to make money. The government is a representation of your will.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by haswell on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:56AM (#43129870)
> Apple is a business. It won't fight a citizen's fight on your behalf.

Being a business does not remove ethical considerations. And I’m an environment where corporations are considered people, it seems reasonable to expect some degree of alignment with normal citizens.

> Apple's goal is to make money. The government is a representation of your will.

The government is increasingly not a representation of the collective will, and is instead captured by those corporations.

I can’t help but feel the “but they exist to make money” line too often ignores the many ways this is not a sufficiently complex explanation of the situation.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by netdevphoenix on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:10PM (#43130079)
Corporations are people in the legal sense not in any other philosophical way. Just like non-humans proposed for personhood, they are not entities expected to behave ethically. Like a dog, you set rules and apply punishments when they breach it. You don't argue ethics with a dog because they are not relevant to them
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by kennysoona on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:11PM (#43130090)
> where corporations are considered people,

People always get this wrong. Corporations are not people. They just have certain rights like owning property. Corporate personhood != full personhood.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by lowbloodsugar on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:13PM (#43130128)
lol. It literally does. This is a great example. You believe this is an ethical issue. Other shareholders (you are a shareholder, right?) could disagree and now there is a lawsuit. “Complying with national law” seems like an easy win for them.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by v3xro on Friday February 21, 2025 @04:56PM (#43133539)
Because while a business goal is to make money, it is not necessarily, unlike what you have 80% of the people here believe, to make the most money possible. Ethics can exist in businesses too.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by aqueueaqueue on Friday February 21, 2025 @05:00PM (#43133588)
This, plus privacy is in Apple's brand. Without this and other Apple-esque things (lack of bloatware etc.) you may as well get a Samsung for 2/3 price.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by hu3 on Monday February 24, 2025 @07:47AM (#43158922)
> Why do pro-privacy tech folks on here act like Apple is some charity...

Because Apple marketing keeps relentlessly bashing their customers skull that privacy is their advantage?

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by ziddoap on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:57AM (#43128978)
See my other reply.

They could also sell the entire business to Google. Why bother with listing options even worse for everyone involved?

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by v3xro on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:59AM (#43129012)
I mean they could have tried not complying, and fighting a lawsuit at the ECHR (right of every person to a private life). Takes money and time but more attractive than the other options.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by ziddoap on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:04AM (#43129085)
It's less attractive, riskier, and more costly of a decision for Apple. Apple is a corporation, not an altruist.

This play by Apple applies pressure to the UK government indirectly via its citizens, for free, rather than taking the risk and expenses of a lawsuit.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by madeofpalk on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:23PM (#43130258)
> would have been for Apple to stop doing business in the UK

Apple employes thousands of people in the UK. I really don't see any practical way they could have done that.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by spacedcowboy on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:58PM (#43130710)
They could

They could pull out of the UK, and to hell with the consequences, but then if the EU decide to do the same thing, or the US, or China says "hold my beer", then the problem becomes much larger.

Losing the UK market wouldn't impact Apple that much - it'd be a hit to the stock, of course, but as a fraction of worldwide business, it isn't that huge. Larger markets would be a bigger issue.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by bargainbin on Friday February 21, 2025 @01:20PM (#43130980)
I’m full in on Apple and hoped they nuked iCloud in the UK for this rather than compromise the product.

This is still better than a back door but it sets an awful precedent.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by piyuv on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:45AM (#43128812)
When UK demanded a backdoor to e2ee in iMessage, Apple told them they’d rather get out of UK. Why not do the same here? You’re posing a false dichotomy.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by GeekyBear on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:33AM (#43129519)
> Apple told them they’d rather get out of UK

To my knowledge, Apple has always said that their response would be to withdraw affected services rather than break encryption.

> Apple has said planned changes to British surveillance laws could affect iPhone users’ privacy by forcing it to withdraw security features, which could ultimately lead to the closure of services such as FaceTime and iMessage in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/20/uk-survei...

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by piyuv on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:40AM (#43129630)
True! Thanks for the correction.

IMO they could’ve categorized the whole iCloud service as “affected” and disable all of it.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by GeekyBear on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:51AM (#43129797)
My guess is that the order they received would have only effected encrypted device backups, at least so far.

Users in the UK do still have the option to perform an encrypted backup to their local PC or Mac.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by ziddoap on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:48AM (#43128864)
What would that change, effectively, other than have Apple lose money?

The UK would still lose ADP (and then also just Apple products in general). A precedent would still be set.

Your posing a strictly worse third option. Sure, it's an option, I guess. Apple could also just close down globally, as a fourth option. Or sell off to Google as a fifth. But I was trying to present the least-bad option (turn off ADP), rather than an exhaustive list.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by elfbargpt on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:05AM (#43129095)
I totally get your point, but calling the UK's bluff could work. Are they really willing to ban Apple products in the UK? Maybe, maybe not
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by maeil on Friday February 21, 2025 @09:08PM (#43135383)
Depends on if the US emperor and his cronies have the UK's backs on this issue. If they don't, calling the bluff would work, there's zero chance the UK gov would ban Apple products without US approval. The backlash among the public would be far worse than the TikTok ban. Imagine all companies using Macs. The order of power here is US > Apple > UK.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by llm_nerd on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:45AM (#43128818)
It isn't really a precedent. Companies, even high-rolling American tech companies, have to abide by the laws and regulations of the countries that they operate in. I guess there is a question of whether this is a legal demand that they truly had to follow, or just a request, and whether they could fight it in court, but Apple seems to be hoping to adjudicate it in the court of public opinion (apparently the initial backdoor request was secret and it got leaked).
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by GeekyBear on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:44AM (#43129688)
> abide by the laws and regulations of the countries that they operate in.

In this case, the UK is seeking to use local law to changes what is allowable on an international basis.

That's a bit different than a nation controlling the law on their own soil.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by llm_nerd on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:52AM (#43129816)
That was Apple's interpretation : That to comply with what the UK requested they would have to have the same thing everywhere.

But of course that is nonsense, and Apple could theoretically have a nation-specific backdoor (e.g. for accounts in a given country a separate sequestered decryption key is created and kept in escrow for court order).

I mean, Apple "complied" by disabling ADP just in the UK. They undermined their own "worldwide" claim, as ADP still works everywhere else, and the UK has no access.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by GeekyBear on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:15PM (#43130151)
> of course that is nonsense

Organizations like the EFF do not agree.

> most concerning, the U.K. is apparently seeking a backdoor into users’ data regardless of where they are or what citizenship they have.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/02/uks-demands-apple-brea...

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by llm_nerd on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:17PM (#43130170)
So Apple is non-compliant, given that all they did is disable ADP in the UK.

Right?

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by spacedcowboy on Friday February 21, 2025 @01:02PM (#43130757)
I think that's right, and I think the UK will tell them so, and the issue will escalate.

Perhaps, if the UK continues to push, Apple will indeed pull out of the UK, but it'll make it as public as possible and tell the world who it was that forced its hand and what the consequences are - and I don't think the UK government is going to like that result.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by ziml77 on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:45PM (#43130535)
IANAL but that's not for any of us to decide. Depending on their initial motivations, the UK might consider this to be enough to rescind the demand for a backdoor. If it's not then Apple will face going to court and in that case they could choose more extreme actions like ceasing business in the UK.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by adgjlsfhk1 on Friday February 21, 2025 @01:13PM (#43130908)
they're non-complient but they made it a lot harder for the UK to fight. by showing that the "backdoor" is disabling the feature, for the UK to pursue this further, the need a judge to rule that the UK has the authority to prevent an American company from providing a feature in America.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by kbolino on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:30PM (#43130351)
The keys are stored only in the Secure Enclave. Encryption and decryption are handled outside the standard CPU and OS. This is hardware-level protection, not just some flag on a cloud account to be flipped. The only way for Apple to break this system is to break it for everyone, since anything else would risk bleed over or insufficient compliance.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by grahamj on Friday February 21, 2025 @12:55PM (#43130667)
> They undermined their own "worldwide" claim, as ADP still works everywhere else, and the UK has no access.

Disagree. There is a difference between ADP being unavailable in one country and it working differently in that country. Implementing a backdoor would mean changing the way ADP works.

Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by bananapub on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:11AM (#43129185)
what do you mean? other countries have demanded the same, e.g. China.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by juanpicardo on Friday February 21, 2025 @11:17AM (#43129281)
China only requires it for their citizens. The UK asked access to any person's data in the world.
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by JKCalhoun on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:41AM (#43128754)
Wait, are you saying the U.S. might demand the same? In the current political environment?
Re:Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government secu... by piyuv on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:46AM (#43128823)
UK is much smaller than US and they didn’t even fight this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯