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Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by timewizard on Monday February 03, 2025 @03:59AM (#42916304)
> get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising

In an environment where information is shared freely and widely.

> So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or similar, it will be done terribly.

That's a reasonable explanation but it's not exclusive. You can still face these challenges and not do a terrible job. There is plenty of evidence this is the case.

> Then there’s lots of hand wringing about how we can’t do this any more.

Of course we can.

> so far behind China in industrial capacity now.

We just don't want to pay first world wages for the work. The arbitrage has been beneficial for a few decades as long as you're not concerned about high quality capacity. Which is what you'd want for a war.

Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by Yeul on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @07:34AM (#42931535)
In the 1970s the Netherlands tried to save it's shipyards (from Japan and Korea at the time China was nothing).

There's just no point to it your oil tankers end up more expensive so nobody will want to buy them.

Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by bluGill on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @07:47AM (#42931667)
There is the real problem. World demand doesn't need enough oil tankers to support the level of automation needed to be competetive.

navy is different in that it is worth building your own and having that automation just in case.

Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by timewizard on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @11:58AM (#42935153)
> In the 1970s the Netherlands tried to save it's shipyards

They have several successful ship building companies today. Is your point that it didn't work? That doesn't seem born out by the reality of today.

> There's just no point to it your oil tankers end up more expensive so nobody will want to buy them.

So the quality is equivalent? And there are no buyers who require high quality in their ships?

Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by Neonlicht on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @02:56PM (#42937710)
The Netherlands still has very successful shipyards but they focus on government contracts (navy, coastguard, ferries) and (super) yachts.

The giant container ships and mammoth tankers are all built in Asia.

Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by fuzzfactor on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @07:48AM (#42931674)
>In an environment where information is shared freely and widely.

Umm, no.

Ever heard of loose lips sinking anyhing?

Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by timewizard on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @11:56AM (#42935099)
You're going with war propaganda to make a point about commerce?
Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by fuzzfactor on Thursday February 06, 2025 @01:54AM (#42959790)
Well I would have to figure it's quite common for people not to have a clue who Lorne Greene was, and probably don't attend that many big old international ships in the average year for very many decades either.
Re:The Nation Needs a Shipbuilding Revolution by jjk166 on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @12:55PM (#42936059)
> > get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising

> In an environment where information is shared freely and widely.

The whole reason you need to do it yourself is because information does not get shared freely and widely. You practice, you learn, you know for the future.

> > So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or similar, it will be done terribly.

> That's a reasonable explanation but it's not exclusive. You can still face these challenges and not do a terrible job. There is plenty of evidence this is the case.

No, there is no way to avoid doing a terrible job when you are out of practice. Maybe you can mitigate some of the worst issues and outperform expectations for someone out of practice, but you'll never be able to compete with those who do it regularly.

> > so far behind China in industrial capacity now.

> We just don't want to pay first world wages for the work.

No, even if the chinese were paid the exact same wages as americans they'ed be able to outperform because, having done this work for decades, they've gotten good at it. They've found new and innovative methods to make things more efficiently, they've invested in machinery and infrastructure to be more productive, and they've cultivated an industrial culture which makes it easier to learn and apply such lessons going forward.