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Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by tristanj on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:54AM (#42767739)
They don't have a choice. ASML licenses the intellectual property for EUV lithography from the US government. Therefore they follow US export control laws on EUV machines.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by KeplerBoy on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:59AM (#42767777)
How did this happen? Why does the US gov own the IP of technology developed in the netherlands by a dutch company?
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by tristanj on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:29AM (#42768007)
Key EUV research was funded by the US government, and developed at Lawrence Livermore/Berkeley Labs & Sandia national labs. The IP is owned by the US government and they created a licensing vehicle, Silicon Valley Labs, to commercialize the technology. ASML acquired licenses to these IPs with its acquisition of Silicon Valley Labs in 2001.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by jansan on Monday January 20, 2025 @11:44AM (#42770420)
My calendar says it is 2025. Shouldn't these patents have expired by now?
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by ozim on Monday January 20, 2025 @12:33PM (#42770993)
I think this IP ASML uses is more like Coca Cola or KFC recipe I did not see those going into public domain as those are trade secrets not patents.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by tonfa on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:45PM (#42772858)
Do you have source for this?

ASML acquired SVGI (Silicon Valley Group, doesn't seem to have been created as a licensing vehicle, apparently founded in 1977), but according to wikipedia it already had access to the technology (SVGI, Intel, and some other US chip manufacturers had access to the tech).

Nowhere in any of the press articles about the acquisition they mention EUV as being a factor (seems like standard industry consolidation instead). If anything they were really far from delivering EUV at the time (it took close to 20y).

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by jmisavage on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:06AM (#42767832)
It’s because the US National Laboratories developed all the initial technology to enable EUV. ASML just builds the machines.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by cowboy_henk on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:50AM (#42768181)
This is really a major simplification and glosses over a lot. US National laboratories were involved but certainly didn't "develop all the initial technology". This page on the ASML website gives a good overview: https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2022/making-euv-lab-to-...
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:18AM (#42767931)
Why would state something that is not correct. Cymer is a fully owned company by ASML.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by ckastner on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:36AM (#42768059)
It seems that you are confusing ownership of the company with licensing of the IP it uses.

AMD produces their own x86 under IP licensed by Intel (and vice versa).

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:43AM (#42768120)
It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly, of base research, where a EU based company spent 20 years and billions of EU funds to create a workable product.

In any case if the US adrenaline fueled diplomacy, starts violating hundreds of years old borders of it's allies, respect for ambiguous IP Laws, will be pretty low in the list of priorities. :-)

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by ckastner on Monday January 20, 2025 @08:02AM (#42768264)
> It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly

The details have never been disclosed but it is well known that this agreement fell within the domain of national security and export controls.

Here's a press release [1] directly from ASML that references these export controls. Even though this PR actually relaxing DUV controls with respect to the U.S., it reaffirms that "EUV systems are also subject to license requirements."

[1]: https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-gover...

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @09:43AM (#42769205)
"To access EUV technology, Intel in 1997 formed the EUV LLC, which entered into a cooperative R&D agreement (CRADA) with DOE. As part of this agreement, Intel and its partners would pay $250 million over three years to cover the direct salary costs of government researchers at the national labs and acquire equipment and materials for the labs, as well as cover the costs of its own researchers dedicated to the project. In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use. At the time, it was the largest CRADA ever undertaken."

In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use

https://issues.org/van_atta/

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by akie on Monday January 20, 2025 @09:17AM (#42768959)
That is such an oversimplification that it's honestly insulting.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by jmisavage on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @08:04AM (#42779669)
Then go read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithograph...

Researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Sandia National Laboratories were funded in the 1990s to perform basic research into the technical obstacles. The results of this successful effort were disseminated via a public/private partnership Cooperative R&D Agreement (CRADA) with the invention and rights wholly owned by the US government, but licensed and distributed under approval by DOE and Congress.

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by stevenwoo on Monday January 20, 2025 @11:53AM (#42770506)
Other posters have given the answer but here is the answer in an informative podcast released just over a month ago with some details on the development process from some ASML PR folks in San Diego (they have offices in the USA).

https://www.npr.org/2024/11/13/1212604208/asml-euv-extreme-u...

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by KeplerBoy on Monday January 20, 2025 @11:57AM (#42770569)
thanks, i appreciate the link and will give it a listen.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by amelius on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:58AM (#42767771)
> The US government owns

Curious how that happened.

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:59AM (#42767783)
It's not true.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by alephnerd on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:35AM (#42768051)
It is in the sense that the LLNL owns the EUV IP that ASML implemented, and ASML is using this IP after inheriting it from AMD+Motorola who sold off their stake in EUV LLC.

All NatLab-Private partnerships have this kind of a rider.

ASML is already starting another partnership with LLNL on next-gen EUV.

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:58AM (#42767770)
> The US government owns the intellectual property for ASML's EUV lithography.

This is false.

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by tristanj on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:19AM (#42767933)
From the wikipedia page on EUV: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithogra...

> To address the challenge of EUV lithography, researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Sandia National Laboratories were funded in the 1990s to perform basic research into the technical obstacles. The results of this successful effort were disseminated via a public/private partnership Cooperative R&D Agreement (CRADA) with the invention and rights wholly owned by the US government, but licensed and distributed under approval by DOE and Congress.[3] The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC).[4]

> In 2001 SVG was acquired by ASML, leaving ASML as the sole benefactor of the critical technology.

Unless the situation has changed, the IP is still owned by the US government, and is licensed to ASML through their acquisition of Silicon Valley Group.

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:33AM (#42768032)
From your own reference ( note this had 18 years of R&D by ASML ):

"By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC after several decades of developmental research, with incorporation of European-funded EUCLIDES (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) and long-standing partner German optics manufacturer ZEISS and synchrotron light source supplier Oxford Instruments..."

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by ckastner on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:41AM (#42768098)
> By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC

That explicitly says that the IP is with EUV-LLC (edit: which is of U.S. origin).

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @08:01AM (#42768255)
In 1998, ASML formed a European industrial R&D consortium dubbed ‘EUCLIDES’ (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) with ZEISS and Oxford Instruments. Then EUCLIDES joined forces with the American EUV LLC in 1999...

"The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC)."

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by ckastner on Monday January 20, 2025 @08:17AM (#42768404)
You keep pointing out European involvement as if that somehow displaced American involvement (and thus continued U.S. control, the subject of this thread).

Again, your first quote explicitly states that EUV-LLC was American. The second quote refers to the "Labs", which in this case were the Lawrence Livermore, Sandia, and Berkeley National Laboratories.

Apple may have developed the M4 from the ground up but they still licensed the ISA from ARM.

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by belter on Monday January 20, 2025 @09:49AM (#42769287)
The EUV-LLC was 100% financed by the private companies in the consortium, ASML being one.

"To access EUV technology, Intel in 1997 formed the EUV LLC, which entered into a cooperative R&D agreement (CRADA) with DOE. As part of this agreement, Intel and its partners would pay $250 million over three years to cover the direct salary costs of government researchers at the national labs and acquire equipment and materials for the labs, as well as cover the costs of its own researchers dedicated to the project. In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use. At the time, it was the largest CRADA ever undertaken."

In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use

https://issues.org/van_atta/

Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by dkjaudyeqooe on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:24AM (#42767968)
Those early patents have likely expired.
Re:Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools by count on Monday January 20, 2025 @01:01PM (#42771303)
The ITAR licensing around their export from the United States and the conditions under which they may be (including flowing down the restrictions clauses) don't expire, generally.