News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by observationist on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:30AM (#42726591)
>> THIS IS DELIBERATELY MALICIOUS SOFTWARE INTENDED TO CAUSE HARMFUL ACTIVITY. DO NOT DEPLOY IF YOU AREN'T FULLY COMFORTABLE WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Don't come out and announce that you intend to do an illegal thing, then do said illegal thing. There's not even plausible deniability at that point.

By publishing the software on a public endpoint, you risk running afoul of CFAA. One of the principles by which the internet operates is the express, explicit permission you grant to the public to connect to your server by the mere act of connecting your server to the internet. If you deliberately and maliciously interfere with the normal operation of authorized persons and systems - which is everyone and any software, if you are serving a public endpoint - then a tarpit like this is illegal. You don't get to pick and choose how you think the internet should work; it's got legal and technical requirements. Anything on a public endpoint is provided to the public. You're expected to follow technical protocols - deploying deliberately malicious software, no matter how self righteous you might feel about it, is a great way to get taken to court, lose access to hosting services, get sued, or any of a whole suite of negative legal outcomes.

The internet works because there's an implicit agreement of good faith participation in web protocols. It doesn't matter if it's somebody frustrated with big tech scrapers, or if it's big tech casually laying waste to little people; sometimes the laws are doing a good thing. In this case, it heavily suggests that running something like this is not good, and very likely is illegal, and depending on how much harm your instance causes, it could endanger your freedom.

Under 18 U.S.C. § 1030, amounts over $5,000 in aggregate damage/loss during any 1-year period brings the use of this software to the level of a felony offense. Subsequent offenses are treated as felonies at lower thresholds. Deliberately interfering with the sanctioned, legal, and authorized access to a server you are voluntarily publishing to the internet is not a good idea; you might trip up on a bored lawyer, or if you really get one good and waste a whole lot of someone else's compute, time, and money, they'll be motivated to sic a lawyer on you.

Crawlers shouldn't be expected to filter this. One of the costs of serving content to the public internet is the permission you grant to any and every person or thing that connects and you serve a piece of content.

By publishing to a public endpoint, you are granting permission to crawlers to access your content. Anything that is served by your server to any software is authorized by your having deployed and configured the server to do so.

Robots.txt is a good neighbor mechanism. It'd be great if crawlers respected it, but you aren't entitled to tell anyone they can't use the internet exactly how it was designed to be used. Getting hackernews hug of death, a popularity ddos, scraped by big tech, or any of a dozen other unfortunate things will happen if your site is public.

Also, consider that relatively small, cheap llms are able to parse the difference between meaningful content and Markovian jabber such as this software produces. It's only getting better, and thus far, "poisoning" of datasets is ragebait slop without any technical validity or relevance to the developers. Simply using unfiltered reddit is more damaging than including noise, and AI is getting to the point that noise gets filtered; you'd have to have an AI and architecture comparable to the one you're poisoning deliberately and specifically configured to disrupt the training run, spending as much compute on the disruption as is being spent on the learning.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by jsheard on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:39AM (#42726726)
This is a really bad take, it's not like this server is hacking clients which connect to it. It's providing perfectly valid HTTP responses that just happen to be slow and full of markov gibberish, any harm which comes of that is self inflicted by assuming that websites must provide valuable data as a matter of course.

If AI companies want to sue webmasters for that then by all means, they can waste their money and get laughed out of court.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by bwfan123 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:51AM (#42726898)
yea, it comes across as an extremely entitled mobster take.

heads i win, tails you lose. we own all your content, and you better behave.

i can bet this is incentive-speak.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by observationist on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:14AM (#42727262)
I don't think people are understanding.

There are norms and expectations for participating with the public internet; on the one hand, there's an expectation of good faith, and you're not being a good neighbor if you DOS a site with your crawler or scraper. On the other hand, it's technically legal to access any authorized content being served by a server, and laws like CFAA, the providers TOS, and other regulations shape the legal regime in which websites operate. In much the same way that there are different legal ramifications for behavior in public and behavior in private, the Supreme Court in the US has distinguished between Gate Up websites and Gate Down websites; in the former, then the technical operation and protocols largely govern the legal framework, while in the Gate Down scenario, the server operator can impose a contract - terms of service - which legally constrains the user to expected use.

You cannot set up a trap, in public, doing something deliberately malicious intended to cause harm, like consuming time, money, compute, etc. The law explicitly forbids that.

You can, however, use something like logins or paywalls, the equivalent of putting up a no trespassing sign, and require people behind the gate agree to things like "no scraping allowed" or whatever other terms and conditions you want to apply, and make any interactions in the Gate Down domain fully consensual and legal. You can deploy this software in such a private context, and that's actually a good thing, just like honeypots and such set up to tangle hackers and waste time.

It'd be just like setting up an obstacle course on a public highway - certain domains are regulated by certain legal frameworks, and the public internet has such a regulatory and technical framework. The price you pay for publishing something to the public is the implicit permission and authorization you grant to anyone or anything that connects over the protocol by which you're serving content.

Platforms conveniently failed to educate users of the consequences of their choice to publish content to the public internet. By choosing a Gate Up model, YouTube, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, and so on imposed unfettered access within the legal constraints determined by the Supreme Court, technical protocols, CFAA, DMCA, and other factors. hiQ vs LinkedIn , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn , established the legality of scrapers and crawlers, and determined the legal conditions by which your site is public or private.

Running Nepenthes in public is effectively operating malware, however morally justified it might feel.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by tofof on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:21PM (#42728123)
Please provide a citation for a law that proscribes me from publically offering a service which consumes time while it is voluntarily engaged with.
Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by observationist on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:45AM (#42726813)
Deliberately, maliciously interfering with the normal operation of a system, like the internet, isn't legal. Crawling and scraping are legal. That's the price we pay for having a global, publicly accessible internet.

If you want to protect your content, use the technical mechanisms that are available, like login systems or paywalls, or shared blocklists. You can choose to gatekeep your content, and by doing so, make it unscrapeable, and legally protected.

"Hacking clients" have nothing to do with this. It's people, software, and scrapers connecting to publicly served endpoints. If you want to deploy this behind a gate, in private, have at it. In public, maliciously? No bueno.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by tofof on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:12PM (#42728003)
He's not interfering with any normal operation of any system. He is offering links. You can follow them or not, entirely at your own discretion. Those links load slowly. You can wait for them to complete or not, entirely at your own discretion.

The crawler's normal operation is not interfered with in any way: the crawler does exactly what it's programmed to do. If its programmers decided it should exhaustively follow links, he's not preventing it from doing that operation.

Legally, at best you'd be looking to warp the concept of attractive nuisance to apply to a crawler. As that legal concept is generally intended to prevent bodily harm to children, however, good luck.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by blibble on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:56AM (#42726981)
> If you want to protect your content, use the technical mechanisms that are available,

> You can choose to gatekeep your content, and by doing so, make it unscrapeable, and legally protected.

so... robots.txt, which the AI parasites ignore?

> Also, consider that relatively small, cheap llms are able to parse the difference between meaningful content and Markovian jabber such as this software produces.

okay, so it's not damaging, and there you've refuted your entire argument

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by observationist on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:23AM (#42727385)
No, put up a loginwall or paywall, authenticate users, and go private. You can't have the benefits of a public site and try to impose your own terms and conditions. This is why LinkedIn had to go private and require logins; the public internet operates by technical protocols, and by serving content, you expressly grant permission to receive the content, without restriction or qualification. It's a proactive transaction on the part of the server operator. If you want to serve to any old person or system or software on the internet, and your server is configured to do so, you cannot impose arbitrary additional rules after the fact. You expressly consent to the user's interactions with your server by setting it up to serve content to whoever connects.

If you want ToS or rules of conduct or any other constraints on interactions with your server or content, you have to engage the user in a legally binding contract. The technical mechanisms to do so require authenticating the user, requiring identification and segregation of individuals, each requiring separate, documented consent and agreement. Once there's a login, or unique session, you can impose whatever conditions you want, and you should.

Interacting in public comes with certain expectations and limitations. This should be communicated more clearly; the general public should know what it means to publish to a platform open to the public, for example.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by jsheard on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:43AM (#42727632)
> No, put up a loginwall or paywall, authenticate users, and go private.

We know for a fact that AI companies don't respect that, if they want data that's behind a paywall then they will jump through hoops to take it anyway.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/10/mark-zuck...

If they don't have to abide by "norms" then we don't have to for their sake. Fuck 'em.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by observationist on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:52AM (#42727731)
They have to follow the law, and the law explicitly allows scraping and crawling. Norms aren't enough; to get where most people seem to want to be, we need legislation that effectively makes robots.txt as legally binding and valid as a No Trespassing sign. There are significant consequences to the internet and public discourse if that happens, and it's not all good.
Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by blibble on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:58AM (#42727804)
this is a very US-ian view of the world

my site is not in the US, I am not a US citizen. US law does not apply to me.

under UK law: robots.txt is an access control mechanism (weak or otherwise)

knowingly bypassing it is likely a criminal offence under the Computer Misuse Act

good luck suing me because you got stuck when you smashed my window and climbed through it

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by tir on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:26PM (#42728192)
>the law explicitly allows scraping and crawling.

Nepenthes also allows scraping and crawling, for as long as you like.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by jazzyjackson on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:59PM (#42729375)
I guess it's an unpopular take but I don't see why it was flagged. It's a good point of discussion.
Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by grajaganDev on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:52AM (#42726912)
Are you a lawyer?
Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by observationist on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:33AM (#42727516)
I'm able to understand the rules by which the society in which I exist operates without having a law degree. Laws are published, and discussed by specialist lawyers, who, like every other type of nerd, love to geek out about their specialties and discuss the case law and precedents. Blogs like https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2023/03/after-hiq-labs... , and all sorts of discussions on HN and other forums are available and cover the topic frequently and thoroughly.

The civics surrounding the rights and responsibilities of website and server operators really should be communicated better; a more informed general public would allow better regulation and legislation to be created.

Robots.txt should have the legal standing of a No Trespassing sign. You should be able to dictate terms to a reasonable degree on a public site; it shouldn't be legal to effectively DOS someone endlessly and repeatedly without recourse. As it stands, though, there's not a lot of protections for little guys. You have to implement a login mechanism, or some way of identifying unique visitors and requiring authentication, in order to impose your own rules on a site.

Re:Nepenthes is a tarpit to catch AI web crawlers by jazzyjackson on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:58PM (#42729369)
I broadly agree with what you're trying to get across here, but I don't see why I can't set my own standards for what use of my server is authorized or not.

If I publish content at my domain, I can set up blocklists to refuse access to IP ranges I consider more likely to be malicious than not. Is that not already breaking the social contract you're pointing to wrt serving content public ? picking and choosing which parts of the public will get a response from my server ? (I would also be interested to know if there is actual law vs social contracts around behavior) So why shouldn't I be able enforce expectations on how my server is used? The vigilantism aspect of harming the person breaking the rules is another matter, I'm on the fence.

Consider the standard warning posted to most government sites, which is more or less a "no trespassing sign" [0] informing anyone accessing the system what their expectations should be and what counts as authorized use. I suppose it's not a legally binding contract to say "you agree to these terms by requesting this url" but I'm pretty sure convictions have happened with hackers who did not have a contract with the service provider.

[0] https://ir.nist.gov/