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Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by miki123211 on Sunday December 29, 2024 @07:14AM (#42539467)
Opt in doesn't work, it never did.

The vast majority (>95%) of users does not understand what those pop-ups say, seems fundamentally incapable of reading them, and either always accepts, always rejects, or always clicks the more visually-appealing button.

Try observing a family member who is not in tech and not in the professional managerial class, and ask them what pop-up they just dismissed and why. It's one of the best lessons in the interactions between tech and privacy you can get.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by deaddodo on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:04AM (#42539689)
> Sexual consent doesn't work, it never did.

> The vast majority (>95%) of people do not understand when to give consent or how to voice a no; and either always accepts, always rejects, or always tunes out.

There's consent reframed to another subject where we've (pretty universally) agreed that it is still a fundamental right.

Things are easy to waive away when you pettyfog them into cute little abstractions; which is why people discuss the fundamental meaning of things and not niche instantiations of them.

All but 1 person out of 7bln could read the consent form and, in an informed manner, accept/deny it. It wouldn't matter, all 7bln still have a right to consent.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by saagarjha on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:17AM (#42539760)
If 6.99 billion people cannot give informed consent on something, you have more problems than just showing the dialog.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by deaddodo on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:51AM (#42539930)
Certainly, which is 100% a discussion about how to better present information.

It still doesn't change the fundamental right to consent.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by LPisGood on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:19AM (#42539771)
Most people treat _sex_ very differently than _data sharing_ to the point that the comparison doesn’t really hold up for me.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by deaddodo on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:52AM (#42539934)
We're not talking about either, we're talking about consent.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Sunday December 29, 2024 @10:05AM (#42540364)
Sadly, sites like Tinder suggest those two objects are, in fact, treated very much the same way.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by aprilthird2021 on Sunday December 29, 2024 @09:03AM (#42540004)
Except that, still, to this day, most sexual consent is assumed, not explicit, even in the highest brow circles where most people are pro-explicit-sexual-consent.

The same way, most tech privacy consent is assumed, not explicit. Users dismiss popups because they want to use the app and don't care what you do with the data. Maybe later they will care, but not in the moment...

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by deaddodo on Sunday December 29, 2024 @09:15AM (#42540093)
> Except that, still, to this day, most sexual consent is assumed, not explicit

Did you miss my sarcastic little requote blurb that stated exactly that? Or do you normally rephrase the exact same point with added ad hominem attacks, and somehow frame it as a counterpoint?

> The same way, most tech privacy consent is assumed, not explicit.

And yet, you still have a right to it. In both instances.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by aprilthird2021 on Sunday December 29, 2024 @10:02AM (#42540350)
What is the ad hominem attack here?

Anyways, the "right" you have to explicit sexual consent is not really there. In that, you cannot go to court and say "I said no" and get any meaningful damages or a conviction without other evidence. Similarly, courts treat these popups as essentially unreadable and you cannot go to court and say "They clicked "Allow"" and get away with anything unreasonable.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by Longhanks on Sunday December 29, 2024 @07:45AM (#42539581)
Well, then >95% of users won't be using $FEATURE. Simple as that. The fact that users for some reason no not consent to $FEATURE the way corporations/shareholders would want them to does not give anyone the right to stop asking for consent in the first place.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by jermaustin1 on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:39AM (#42539856)
> Try observing a family member who is not in tech

This is everyone, it is universal, I've met many people "in tech" who also click the most "visually appealing" button because they are trying to dismiss everything in their way to get to the action they are trying to complete.

The microcosm that is HN users might not just dismiss things at the 95%+ rate, but that is because we are fed, every day, how our data is being misappropriated ate every level. I think outside of these tiny communities, even people in tech, are just clicking the pretty button and making the dialog go away.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by mihaaly on Sunday December 29, 2024 @09:04AM (#42540014)
Opt in works!

If you do not want it (and that is >90% of people, who never asked for it, never requested it, but was forced upon them these 'enriched' lies and exposure to corporate greed).

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by jasoneckert on Sunday December 29, 2024 @09:37AM (#42540221)
When looked at from another angle, opt-in does work.

By adding that extra step forcing users to be aware of (and optionally decline) the vendors collection of personal data, it adds a disincentive for collecting the data in the first place.

In other words, opt-in can be thought of as a way to encourage vendors to change their behaviour. Consumers who don't see an opt-in will eventually know that the vendor isn't collecting their information compared to others and trust the product more.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by SamInTheShell on Sunday December 29, 2024 @01:20PM (#42541715)
Informed consent is sexy. In the Apple ecosystem, we’re literally paying customers. This is ridiculous. This line you parroted is ridiculous. This needs to stop.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by spookie on Sunday December 29, 2024 @01:38PM (#42541878)
The issue really isn't opt-in itself but how the option is presented.

I agree that a lot of people don't read, or attempt to understand the UI being presented to them in any meaningful manner. It really is frustrating seeing that happen.

But, think about the "colorful" option you briefly mentioned. Dark patterns have promoted this kind of behaviour from popups. The whole interaction pattern has been forever tainted. You need to present it in another way.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by jchw on Sunday December 29, 2024 @01:51PM (#42541982)
As much as I hate cookie consent dialogs everywhere, the fact is that it is clearly working. Some companies are going as far as to force users to pay money in order to be able to opt out of data collection. If it wasn't so cumbersome to opt-out, I reckon the numbers for opt-out would be even higher. And if companies weren't so concerned about the small portion of users that opt-out, they wouldn't have invested in finding so many different dark patterns to make it hard.

It is definitely true that most users don't know what they're opting out of, they just understand that they have basically nothing to gain anyway, so why opt-in?

But actually, that's totally fine and working as intended. To be fair to the end user, Apple has done something extremely complicated here, and it's going to be extremely hard for anyone except for an expert to understand it. A privacy-conscious user could make the best call by just opting out of any of these features. An everyday user might simply choose to not opt-in because they don't really care about the feature in the first place: I suspect that's the real reason why many people opt-out in the first place, you don't need to understand privacy risks to know you don't give a shit about the feature anyway.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by hamandcheese on Sunday December 29, 2024 @10:09PM (#42546061)
Opt in works great, pop-up dialogues do not.