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Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by talldayo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:10PM (#42534155)
The right call is to provide the feature and let users opt-in. Apple knows this is bad, they've directly witnessed the backlash to OCSP, lawful intercept and client-side-scanning. There is no world in which they did not realize the problem and decided to enable it by default anyways knowing full-well that users aren't comfortable with this.

People won't trust homomorphic encryption, entropy seeding or relaying when none of it is transparent and all of it is enabled in an OTA update.

> This is what a good privacy story looks like.

This is what a coverup looks like. Good privacy stories never force third-party services on a user, period. When you see that many puppets on stage in one security theater, it's only natural for things to feel off.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by latexr on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:29PM (#42534358)
> This is what a coverup looks like.

That’s starting to veer into unreasonable levels of conspiracy theory. There’s nothing to “cover up”, the feature has an off switch right in the Settings and a public document explaining how it works. It should not be on by default but that’s not a reason to immediately assume bad faith. Even the author of the article is concerned more about bugs than intentions.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by CapcomGo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:58PM (#42534670)
Sure it is. This isn't a feature or setting that users check often or ever. Now, their data is being sent without their permission or knowledge.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by latexr on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:10PM (#42534767)
Which is wrong but doesn’t make it a coverup, which by definition assumes trying to hide evidence of wrongdoing.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by talldayo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @05:46PM (#42535506)
It is a coverup. Apple is overtly and completely aware of the optics surrounding photo scanning - they know that an opt-in scheme cannot work as they found out previously.

Since they cannot convince users to enable this feature in good-faith, they are resorting to subterfuge. We know that Apple is vehement about pushing client-side scanning on users that do not want it, I do not believe for a second that this was a mistake or unintended behavior. If this was a bug then it would have been hotfixed immediately to prevent the unintended behavior from reaching any more phones than it already had.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by threeseed on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:18PM (#42535737)
> they are resorting to subterfuge

This is illogical. If Apple wanted to engage in subterfuge they would simply compromise the OS.

When a company controls the entire stack either you trust everything they do. Or nothing.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by latexr on Saturday December 28, 2024 @08:10PM (#42536460)
Exactly. It is absolutely bonkers that people are claiming that Apple is trying to cover up something for which they have a settings toggle and public documentation.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by kemayo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:23PM (#42537205)
Yeah, we might quibble about what the default value of the toggle should be, but them adding settings for minor features like this is absolutely a good thing, and very much a sign that they're not trying to hide things.

If anything, the lesson Apple might take from this could be "adding the settings toggle was a bad idea, because nobody would have cared about this at all otherwise".

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by gigel82 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:24PM (#42535772)
Would you feel the same if Microsoft turned on Recall on all Windows PCs everywhere with an update?

They worked very hard on security these past few months, so it should be all good, right?

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by latexr on Saturday December 28, 2024 @08:16PM (#42536501)
That is not the point at all and you either didn’t try to understand one iota of it or are outright arguing in bad faith.

I am not claiming for one moment that enabling this by default is OK. In fact, I have explicitly said it is not.

What I am saying is that it is ignorant to call this a cover up, because a cover up requires subterfuge. This feature has a freaking settings toggle and public documentation. Calling it a cover up is the type of uneducated rhetoric that makes these issues being brushed off by those in power as “it’s just a bunch of loonies conspiracy theorists complaining”.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by gigel82 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @08:52PM (#42536726)
Got it, so if Windows Defender (that is enabled by default on all Windows PCs) pushes an update that scans all your files on all connected drives and uploads hashes to the mothership, enables this by default and proceeds to execute the scan and upload immediately after update, but also includes a setting that lets you turn it off when you find out about its existence from some 3rd party article, that is all perfectly fine? (since there is no subterfuge)
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by latexr on Sunday December 29, 2024 @04:59AM (#42538961)
> Got it

Clearly you have not. If you did, you wouldn’t continue to give an example which is not equivalent.

No, it would not be “perfectly fine”, I just said it wouldn’t. You can do something wrong without it being a cover up.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by matheusmoreira on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:27PM (#42536886)
> the feature has an off switch right in the Settings and a public document explaining how it works

Irrelevant.

This is Apple's proprietary software, running on Apple's computers, devices which use cryptography to prevent you from inspecting it or running software they don't control. Very few people have any idea how it actually works or what it actually does.

That there's some "public document" describing it is not evidence of anything.

> that’s not a reason to immediately assume bad faith

The mere existence of this setting is evidence of bad faith. The client side scanning nonsense proved controversial despite their use of children as political weapons. That they went ahead and did this despite the controversy removes any possible innocence. It tells you straight up that they cannot be trusted.

> Even the author of the article is concerned more about bugs than intentions.

We'll draw our own conclusions.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by oneplane on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:17PM (#42534222)
It's not that binary. Nobody is forcing anything, you can not buy a phone, you can not use the internet. Heck, you can even not install any updates!

What is happening, is that people make tradeoffs, and decide to what degree they trust who and what they interact with. Plenty of people might just 'go with the flow', but putting what Apple did here in the same bucket as what for example Microsoft or Google does is a gross misrepresentation. Present it all as equals just kills the discussion, and doesn't inform anyone to a better degree.

When you want to take part in an interconnected network, you cannot do that on your own, and you will have to trust other parties to some degree. This includes things that might 'feel' like you can judge them (like your browser used to access HN right here), but you actually can't unless you understand the entire codebase of your OS and Browser, all the firmware on the I/O paths, and the silicon it all runs on. So you make a choice, which as you are reading this, is apparently that you trust this entire chain enough to take part in it.

It would be reasonable to make this optional (as in, opt-in), but the problem is that you end up asking a user for a ton of "do you want this" question, almost ever upgrade and install cycle, which is not what they want (we have had this since Mavericks and Vista, people were not happy). So if you can engineer a feature to be as privacy-centric yet automated as possible, it's a win for everyone.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by gigel82 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:22PM (#42534284)
I don't want my photos to take part in any network; never asked for it, never expected it to happen. I never used iCloud or other commercial cloud providers. This is just forceful data extraction by Apple, absolutely egregious behavior.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by oneplane on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:25PM (#42534315)
Your photos aren't taken. Did you read the article at all?
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by gigel82 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:37PM (#42534445)
The "network" mention was in reply to your comment about "participating in a network" which was never the case for one's personal photos (unless explicitly shared on a social network I guess).

I did read the article, yes :) Maybe our photos are not sent bit-by-bit but enough data from the photos is being sent to be able to infer a location (and possibly other details) so it is the same thing: my personal data is being sent to Apple's servers (directly or indirectly, partially or fully) without my explicit consent.

At least the last time they tried to scan everyone's photos (in the name of the children) they pinky promised they'd only do it before uploading to iCloud, now they're doing it for everyone's photos all the time - it's disgusting.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by oneplane on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:42PM (#42534507)
No, your photos aren't sent, also not 'pieces' of it. They are creating vector data which can be used to create searchable vectors which in turn can be used on-device to find visual matches for your search queries (which are local).

You can imagine it as hashes (created locally), some characters of that hash from some random positions being used to find out if those can be turned into a query (which is compute intensive so they use PCC for that). So there is no 'data' about what it is, where it is or who it is. There isn't even enough data to create a picture with.

Technically, everything could of course be changed, heck, Apple could probably hire someone with binoculars and spy on you 24/7. But this is not that. Just like baseband firmware is not that, and activation is not that, yet using them requires communication with Apple all the same.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by jazzyjackson on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:53PM (#42535119)
My understanding as the blog laid it out was that the cloud service is doing the vector similarity search against a finite database of landmark feature vectors, but they are performing that mathematical function under homomorphic encryption such that the result of the vector comparison can only be read with a key that never left your device, so it's just adding a tag "Eiffel tower" that only you see, but the feature vector is sent off device, it's just never able to be read by another party.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by oneplane on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:59PM (#42537058)
Yep. It's essentially an implementation of remote attestation "the other way around". Normally the edge device is untrusted and needs to attest a variety of things before compute is done and the result is accepted, but PCC is the other way where the edge device holds the keys (technically octagon works that out, but it's backed by the on-device SEP).

So it does it multiple ways:

- Finite sets and added noise, doesn't hurt performance too much but does make it nearly impossible to ID/locate a photo

- Encryption at rest and in transit

- Transit over hops they don't own

- Homomorphic Encryption during remote compute

The data it finds was available in two ways: the "result" and the vector embedding. Not sure which one you end up consuming since it also has to work on older models that might not be able to load the embeddings and perform adequately, but it doesn't matter since the data itself will be unique so you can't do parallel reconstruction, but it is also uniquely meaningless to anyone without a key. They are essentially computing on needles that aren't in a haystack, but in a needle stack.

The primitives all this is built on have been around for quite a while, including their HBONE implementation, the cryptographically hidden data distribution and the SEP. So far, it has been the only one of its kind outside of disjointed options like buying and operating your own HSM, a large TOR network and a yet to-be-invented self-hosted PCC solution (AMD was supposed to release something but they failed at that, just not as bad as Intel messed up with SGX).

Technically, even with everything else removed, just some good TLS 1.2+ and homomorphic encryption would have been more than any other mass market manufacturer has ever done in an effective way. But by adding the additional factors such as degrees of separation so they couldn't get in themselves (without breaking it for everyone in the process) is what makes this so much more robust.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by gigel82 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:10PM (#42535683)
That is incorrect. If everything was local they wouldn't need HE and OHTTP and everything else.

I would be ok with this being a local feature, where I can download the signature database to my device and run the search locally (as you say), but as it stands some information about my photos (enough to detect places at least, possibly more in the future) is being sent out of my device. I want zero information about my photos to leave my device.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by talldayo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:12PM (#42535696)
> Just like baseband firmware is not that, and activation is not that, yet using them requires communication with Apple all the same.

I mean, this is just wrong. Baseband firmware and carrier activation can be managed entirely independently of Apple, they just choose to manage it themselves. The number of places where Apple chooses to insert their own services as arbitrary middlemen has been a perennially worrying topic among Apple enthusiasts. It's not just disrespectful to people that pay a premium for fewer service advertisements, it's downright unsafe and does not reflect the sort of forward-thinking security that people in the industry respect.

There was a time when Apple focused on real and innovative product differentiation, but I'll be damned if you can give me a post-Wozniak example that isn't under antitrust scrutiny. Apple relies on marketing and branding to make people feel unsafe in a fundamentally insecure system - I don't respect that as a proponent of innovation and competitive digital markets.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by oneplane on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:37PM (#42536943)
Baseband firmware and OS activation have nothing to do with the carrier, just like it didn't on RIM devices back in the day (which is probably the only somewhat comparable version of this).

Perhaps you are thinking about subscription activation (be it GSM or CDMA) and parameters for cell networks (which can indeed be consumed by the baseband, which will be running firmware supplied by the manufacturer, sometimes re-packaged in system images as done in OEM feature phones and many android phones).

Either way, macOS devices do the same thing (activation) as do iPads without cell networking. Same goes for radio firmware loading and updates. You'll find most wintel laptops doing the same for things like WiFi (regardless of softmac/halfmac/hardmac chips).

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by cortesoft on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:06PM (#42535658)
Then don't enable this feature?
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by layer8 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:46PM (#42535958)
The article and this whole thread is about the fact that the feature is enabled by default without notifying the user that the feature even exists.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by talldayo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:20PM (#42534262)
> What is happening, is that people make tradeoffs, and decide to what degree they trust who and what they interact with.

People aren't making tradeoffs - that's the problem. Apple is making the tradeoffs for them, and then retroactively asking their users "is this okay?"

Users shouldn't need to buy a new phone to circumevent arbitrary restrictions on the hardware that is their legal property. If America had functional consumer protections, Apple would have been reprimanded harder than their smackdowns in the EU.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by oneplane on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:29PM (#42534351)
People make plenty of tradeoffs. Most people trade most of their attention/time for things that are not related to thinking about technical details, legal issues or privacy concerns. None of this exists in their minds. Maybe the fact that they implicitly made this tradeoff isn't even something they are aware of.

As for vectorised and noise-protected PCC, sure, they might have an opinion about that, but people rarely are informed enough to think about it, let alone gain the insight to make a judgment about it at all.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by cortesoft on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:07PM (#42535661)
They can just not enable the feature if they don't want this?
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by latexr on Saturday December 28, 2024 @08:21PM (#42536529)
The feature is enabled by default. That’s the only reason we’re having this discussion at all.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by threeseed on Saturday December 28, 2024 @05:43PM (#42535492)
> This is what a coverup looks like

This is a dumb take. They literally own the entire stack Photos runs on.

If they really wanted to do a coverup we would never know about it.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by talldayo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @05:53PM (#42535550)
Why wouldn't this mistake be addressed in a security hotfix then? Apple has to pick a lane - this is either intended behavior being enabled against user's wishes, or unintended behavior that compromises the security and privacy of iPhone owners.
Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by threeseed on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:16PM (#42535725)
Or option (c).

This is a useful, harmless feature that does not comprise security or privacy in any way.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by talldayo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:25PM (#42535786)
If it's a useful, harmless feature, then let users opt-in. You'd think Apple would have learned their lesson after a decade of people bitching about U2 being secreted-in to their iTunes library, but apparently not.

Users are smart enough to decide for themselves. Let them.

Re:Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 by kalleboo on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:17PM (#42537169)
All I've seen this year is people complaining about all the security dialogs Apple are throwing at them when they upgrade macOS ARE YOU SURE ARE YOU SURE ARE YOU SURE