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Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 28, 2024 @07:55AM (#42530735)
> It died when the US invaded Iraq in 2003

Probably not, but that’s a separate—if fruitful—discussion. (Better candidates: NATO bombing Yugoslavia.)

What’s not debatable is that it has changed. Given how lightfootedly Europe is playing its hand, it’s surprising it’s taken this long to get Putin at their throats, Trump at their wallets and Xi gutting their industry.

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Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by dralley on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:05AM (#42531511)
From Europe, it looks like Russia has spent the last decade committing assassinations and sabotages in "the West", including using chemical weapons and causing civilian casualties, has shot down airliners and lied about it, invaded Crimea and lied about it, invaded Donbas and lied about it, then triggered the largest war in Europe since WWII after profligate lies about exercises.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by mopsi on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:57AM (#42531439)
There was no coup in Ukraine. Russian-backed president got over 100 protesters killed, ran away to Russia to avoid justice, and Ukrainian parliament held presidential elections to replace him.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by peutetre on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:59AM (#42531453)
> From Russia it looks like that Europe is at Putin's throat supplying enormous amount of armaments and military equipment to the Ukraine, and helping them with the intelligence.

The solution to this problem is straightforward. Putin can get out of Ukraine. All of it.

Simple to do, easy to achieve. No more Russians or North Koreans need to die.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by klibertp on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:46AM (#42531817)
> The solution to this problem is straightforward. Putin can get out of Ukraine.

Or Ukraine can surrender. "Simple" to do, "easy" to achieve, no more Ukrainians need to die.

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting Ukraine should surrender. I'm saying both Ukraine's surrender and the Russian pull-out are equally hard to do from their respective perspectives.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by fnordsensei on Saturday December 28, 2024 @12:06PM (#42532434)
Only from a very sterile perspective, divorced from humanity.

Consider what it would sound like if you applied this logic to any perpetrator/victim situation, like a rape for example.

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Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by protomolecule on Saturday December 28, 2024 @02:29PM (#42533750)
You should have said "any victim but Crimea" then.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by fnordsensei on Saturday December 28, 2024 @02:43PM (#42533882)
Go complain to HR at the troll farm.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by mopsi on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:42PM (#42535015)
Ukraine limiting irrigation water to Crimea is peanuts compared to historical examples such as Free French Air Force participating in months of severe bombing of road and rail networks, bridges, railyards and other critical infrastructure of occupied France in preparation for the Normandy landings.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by Sabinus on Saturday December 28, 2024 @08:30PM (#42536576)
Ukraine is obligated to provide water for farming in a territory seized by their imperialistic neighbour?
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by aguaviva on Saturday December 28, 2024 @12:40PM (#42532721)
I'm saying both Ukraine's surrender and the Russian pull-out are equally hard to do from their respective perspectives.

Which is completely ludicrous, of course.

For Ukraine, "surrender" means accepting permanent occupation and subjugation.

For Russia, it means they get egg on their face, basically. It will just go back to its corner and sulk for a while. Definitely very doable, as it's something they've done many times in the past.

There's simply no comparison.

And there's no symmetry at all between the two sides in this conflict.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by klibertp on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:09AM (#42539715)
I said: "from their respective perspectives" - that is, subjectively. You're talking about objective facts. I don't disagree with you, but you're also not (visibly) disagreeing with me: we're discussing two entirely different things.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by peutetre on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:59AM (#42539982)
> Without understanding the adversaries' beliefs, no agreement is possible.

Putin believes Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are not a real people. No agreement is possible when that is his attitude.

> I don't think one-sided demands

There is only one side. This is one of the least ambiguous wars in history.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by GoblinSlayer on Saturday December 28, 2024 @02:54PM (#42533993)
Isn't it their strategy to look cute and thus convince other countries to join EU and NATO? If they were to abandon it, they would need to replace all their foreign strategy.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:29PM (#42534359)
> Isn't it their strategy to look cute and thus convince other countries to join EU and NATO

Nobody joins a defensive alliance because it's cute. To the extent a cogent geopolitical message has been delivered, between Bush and Biden, it's that the international order has two castes: nuclear-armed states and everyone else.