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Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:09AM (#42522658)
"AI is a really smart but inexperienced person who also lies frequently." Careful. Here "smart" means "amazing at pattern-matching and incredibly well-read, but has zero understanding of the material."
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by maxdoop on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:21AM (#42522805)
And how is what humans do any different ? What does it mean to understand ? Are we pattern matching as well?
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by HarHarVeryFunny on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:52AM (#42523148)
Sure, we're also pattern matching, but additionally (among other things):

1) We're continually learning so we can update our predictions when our pattern matching is wrong

2) We're autonomous - continually interacting with the environment, and learning how it respond to our interaction

3) We have built in biases such as curiosity and boredom that drive us to experiment, gain new knowledge, and succeed in cases where "pre-training to date" would have failed us

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by bagful on Friday December 27, 2024 @11:01AM (#42523250)
For one, a brain can’t do anything without irreversibly changing itself in the process; our reasoning is not a pure function.

For a person to truly understand something they will have a well-refined (as defined by usefulness and correctness), malleable internal model of a system that can be tested against reality, and they must be aware of the limits of the knowledge this model can provide.

Alone, our language-oriented mental circuits are a thin, faulty conduit to our mental capacities; we make sense of words as they relate to mutable mental models, and not simply in latent concept-space. These models can exist in dedicated but still mutable circuitry such as the cerebellum, or they can exist as webs of association between sense-objects (which can be of the physical senses or of concepts, sense-objects produced by conscious thought).

So if we are pattern-matching, it is not simply of words, or of their meanings in relation to the whole text, or even of their meanings relative to all language ever produced. We translate words into problems, and match problems to models, and then we evaluate these internal models to produce perhaps competing solutions, and then we are challenged with verbalizing these solutions. If we were only reasoning in latent-space, there would be no significant difficulty in this last task.

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by tomrod on Friday December 27, 2024 @11:42AM (#42523623)
Humans can extrapolate as well as interpolate.

AI can only interpolate. We may perceive it as extrapolation, but all LLMs architectures are fundamentally cleverly designed lossy compression

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by Retric on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:33AM (#42522929)
The difference is less about noticing patterns than it is knowing when to discard them.
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @11:08AM (#42523312)
I posted a LLM's answer to your question. But for some reason its answer has attracted a lot of downvotes from the community. Maybe people here are just prejudiced against our AI brothers?
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:32AM (#42522924)
I asked ChatGPT to help out: -----------------------------

"The distinction between AI and humans often comes down to the concept of understanding. You’re right to point out that both humans and AI engage in pattern matching to some extent, but the depth and nature of that process differ significantly." "AI, like the model you're chatting with, is highly skilled at recognizing patterns in data, generating text, and predicting what comes next in a sequence based on the data it has seen. However, AI lacks a true understanding of the content it processes. Its "knowledge" is a result of statistical relationships between words, phrases, and concepts, not an awareness of their meaning or context"

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:40AM (#42523029)
Anyone downvoting, please be aware that you are downvoting the AI's answer!

:)

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by thunky on Friday December 27, 2024 @11:11AM (#42523340)
No, they're downvoting you for posting an AI answer.
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @11:13AM (#42523360)
That AI answer is not spam, though. It's literally the topic under discussion.
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by thunky on Friday December 27, 2024 @12:40PM (#42524213)
Yeah, it's just the fact that you pasted in an AI answer, regardless of how on point it is. I don't think people want this site to turn into an AI chat session.

I didn't downvote, I'm just saying why I think you were downvoted.

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by portaouflop on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:47AM (#42523105)
people are downvoting because they don’t want to see walls of text generated by llms on hn
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @10:54AM (#42523172)
That's reasonable. I cut back the text. On the other hand I'm hoping downvoters have read enough to see that the AI-generated comment (and your response) are completely on-topic in this thread.
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by PKop on Friday December 27, 2024 @11:16AM (#42523386)
If we wanted to talk to an LLM we would go there and do it, this place if for humans to put in effort and use their brains to think for themselves.
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @11:17AM (#42523394)
With respect, can I ask you to please read the thread?
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by PKop on Friday December 27, 2024 @12:14PM (#42523945)
Completely missing the point.

We don't care what LLMs have to say, whether you cut back some of it or not it's a low effort wasted of space on the page.

This is a forum for humans.

You regurgitating something you had no contribution in producing, which we can prompt for ourselves, provides no value here, we can all spam LLM slop in the replies if we wanted, but that would make this site worthless.

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @12:36PM (#42524172)
I think you're saying that reading the thread is completely pointless, because we're all committed to having a high-quality discussion.
Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by ithkuil on Friday December 27, 2024 @12:44PM (#42524248)
It's on topic indeed. But is it insightful?

I use llms as tools to learn about things I don't know and it works quite well in that domain.

But so far I haven't found that it helps advance my understanding of topics I'm an expert in.

I'm sure this will improve over time. But for now, I like that there are forums like HN where I may stumble upon an actual expert saying something insightful.

I think that the value of such forums will be diminished once they get flooded with AI generated texts.

(Fwiw I didn't down vote)

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by oh_my_goodness on Friday December 27, 2024 @01:15PM (#42524536)
Of course the AI's comment was not insightful. How could it be? It's autocomplete.

That was the point. If you back up to the comment I was responding to, you can see the claim was: "maybe people are doing the same thing LLMs are doing". Yet, for whatever reason, many users seemed to be able to pick out the LLM comment pretty easily. If I were to guess, I might say those users did not find the LLM output to be human-quality.

That was exactly the topic under discussion. Some folks seem to have expressed their agreement by downvoting. Ok.

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by ithkuil on Friday December 27, 2024 @02:52PM (#42525453)
I think human brains are a combination of many things. Some part of what we do looks quite a lot like an autocomplete from our previous knowledge.

Other parts of what we do looks more as a search through the space of possibilities.

And then we act and collaborate and test the ideas that stand against scrutiny.

All of that is in principle doable by machines. The things we currently have and we call LLMs seem to currently mostly address the autocomplete part although they begin to be augmented with various extensions that allow them to take baby steps in other fronts. Will they still be called large language models once they will have so many other mechanisms beyond the mere token prediction?

Re:Does current AI represent a dead end? by acjohnson55 on Friday December 27, 2024 @02:06PM (#42525044)
At the end of the day, we're machines, too. I wrote a piece a few months ago with an intentionally provocative title, questioning whether we're truly on a different cognitive level.

https://acjay.com/2024/09/09/llms-think/