News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by HL33tibCe7 on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @01:43PM (#42503914)
Question: would such a simulation be conscious? If not, why not?
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by geor9e on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:40PM (#42504357)
Just like the thousands of times this has been asked in the last century of sci-fi novels, the answer to such semantic questions depends on the mood of the audience for how approximate of a copy they need the ship of Theseus to be before they're comfortable using a certain word for it.
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by Vampiero on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:09PM (#42504124)
Answer: no one knows how consciousness works
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by jncfhnb on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @01:45PM (#42503931)
Also, would it be quorled?
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by GlenTheMachine on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:19PM (#42504190)
This, exactly.

Nobody can defined what consciousness is in terms that can be experimentally validated. Until that happens not only can the question not be answered, it isn't even a question that makes any sense.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by bqmjjx0kac on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:52PM (#42504430)
There are more questions that make sense than those that can be tested.

To the point, I have a convincing experience of consciousness and free will — qualia — and I suspect a digital clone of my brain would have a similar experience. Although this question is not testable, I think it's inaccurate to say that it doesn't make sense.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by jncfhnb on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @04:46PM (#42505169)
It’s not really the testableness that makes the problem. It’s the fact that you’re asking about X where X is undefined.

If you can provide a satisfying definition of X it’s very clear

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by kelseyfrog on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:22PM (#42504213)
How would you operationalize quorledness?
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by fellerts on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @01:52PM (#42503994)
What now?
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by jncfhnb on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @01:55PM (#42504025)
Precisely
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by fallingknife on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:23PM (#42504219)
If you accept the two premises:

1. A human brain has consciousness

2. The device is a perfect digital replica of a human brain

I can't think of any argument that the device does not have consciousness that doesn't either rely on basically magic or lead to other ridiculous conclusions.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by Vampiero on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:30PM (#42504274)
The argument is that if you accept your precondition then you must also accept superdeterminism and that free will does not exist.

Because physicalism implies that the mind is an emergent phenomenon, and because quantum physics is a linear theory, there's simply no place for free will unless you go down some weird/unfalsifiable rabbit holes like the MWI.

So a lot of people prefer to latch onto the idea that there is a soul, because if there wasn't one, then they wouldn't be special anymore.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by webmaven on Wednesday December 25, 2024 @08:28AM (#42508684)
> there's simply no place for free will unless you go down some weird/unfalsifiable rabbit holes like the MWI.

I don't follow. Quantum mechanics means that physics is stochastic, and only approximates classical determinism in aggregate. Meanwhile, brains seem to operate in a critical state that can be tipped to different phase transitions by small perturbations, so there is potential for a quantum event to influence the brain as a whole in a nondeterministic fashion.

This means that strict physicalism still leaves the door open to our behavior being stochastic rather than deterministic, doesn't it?

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by Vampiero on Wednesday December 25, 2024 @01:52PM (#42510417)
Quantum events may be stochastic (there's still some hope for hidden variables though from what I understand -- either way, as far as the macroscopic world is concerned, it's basically random) but that doesn't mean that somewhere in that randomness a cosmic YOU is deciding anything. It just means it's random. Anything that follows after that is perfectly causal and determined and can be understood in the context of chaos theory.

So in this view consciousness is better explained as an illusion than as the seat of your will. Because you can't really have a will if every interaction that led to your existence can, in principle, be computed forward in time from the big bang. Physicalists see it as a complex emergent phenomenon akin to a run of Conway's Game of Life that started from a random seed.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by webmaven on Friday December 27, 2024 @02:44PM (#42525397)
It's true that the quantum mechanical influence amounts to randomness, but you're missing that this (weak) randomness is constantly being injected into biological processes and amplified, it isn't a "one and done" random seed. So it isn't true that the consequences of living systems can be modeled and computed deterministically, even in principle. And this is even less true of intelligent systems like brains.

Whether that stochasticity amounts to free will is a separate discussion, but it is fairly clear to me that many of our decisions are consequential and AREN'T predetermined. Which at least sounds like free will, or close enough to warrant being treated as such, anyway.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by binoct on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:48PM (#42504411)
There are some great, thorny, philosophical and physical arguments to be had with your proposed conclusion, but let’s say we all agree with it.

The bigger, more relevant, and testable challenge is premise #2. The gap between this proposed research tool and “a perfect digital replica of a human brain” (and all functionally relevant inputs and outputs from all other systems and organs in the body) is monstrously large. Given that we don’t understand what mechanism(s) consciousness arises from, a model would have to be 100% perfect in basically all aspects for the conclusion to be true.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by namero999 on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:36PM (#42504317)
At the present state of affairs, "a human brain has consciousness" is the magical bit.
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by bossyTeacher on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:47PM (#42504399)
Bit hard to answer that since there is no definition of consciousness, is there? If I gave you access to the brain of some living animal, you wouldn't be able to tell whether it was "conscious" would you? Not sure, how can we expect that from an artificial and highly simplified version of a neural network
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by namero999 on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:31PM (#42504285)
Of course not. A simulation is not the process itself. So even provisionally granting that consciousness is magically created by the brain (for which we have no evidence), a computer simulation would still not be a brain and therefore not create consciousness.

You would not expect your computer to pee on your desk if you were to simulate kidney function, would you?

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by lucasoshiro on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @02:49PM (#42504413)
> You would not expect your computer to pee on your desk if you were to simulate kidney function

If my computer is connected to actuators that opens a pee valve like a brain is, then I expect.

The main point, in think, is that we can't say precisely what consciousness is. Everything definition on that that I can imagine is something that can be replicated in a computer or that relies on belief, like the existence of a soul...

I hope that we have answers for that before the technology that allow us to do that

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by IAmYourDensity on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @07:47PM (#42506061)
> A simulation is not the process itself.

Sometimes a simulation IS the thing. A simulation of a wall clock IS a functioning clock (e.g. the clock icon on our smartphones). An autopilot that can takeoff, fly, and land an airplane IS a pilot. Chess engines that can beat grandmasters are chess players. A computer simulation of a teacher that can educate students is a teacher. Sometimes these simulations lack some of the capabilities of their human counterparts, and sometimes they far exceed them.

> You would not expect your computer to pee on your desk if you were to simulate kidney function, would you?

You would not reject a computer-controlled dialysis machine as "just a simulation" if you had kidney failure would you?

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by namero999 on Wednesday December 25, 2024 @10:41AM (#42509299)
> You would not reject a computer-controlled dialysis machine as "just a simulation" if you had kidney failure would you?

Except that's not a simulation, that's the actual process of dialysis in action (which we fully understand, contrary to consciousness). And coincidentally, a dialysis machine _does not_ look like a kidney, not even remotely, and any homomorphism one can point to, is such only through a great deal of layers of abstraction. I would totally reject a simulation of a kidney.

We are talking about a computer simulation like a neural network. We detect topological relationships in neurons and we are led to believe or entertain the possibility that all there is to it is such topological description, hence any substrate will do. This is completely arbitrary and leads to all sort of phantasies such as "qualities emerge from quantities" and "a simulation of a brain behaves like a brain". A computer simulation of a kidney won't produce urine just like a simulation of a brain won't produce whatever the brain produces, if anything.

Now, to build on your dialysis machine analogy, if we were to understand how consciousness work, and if we were to understand what relationships it holds with the brain and the body, then I submit that anything artificial we will produce will look like biology.

Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by aithrowawaycomm on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @05:06PM (#42505269)
The real problem is that this uses a very a crude and inadequate model for neurons: it ignores neurotransmitters, epigentics, or the dendritic complexity of cortical neurons. There’s no chance this system will ever come close to simulating an actual brain.
Re:Cerebrum: Simulate and infer synaptic connectivity in lar... by RaftPeople on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @06:27PM (#42505712)
And it ignores that neurons are dynamically inhibited/excited by the astrocytes at the synapse. The network itself is shifting constantly as it processes information.