While I agree with the advice, and all I use are steel and cast iron, I think you need a big disclaimer on "they don't stick." To a new user coming from Teflon, they absolutely stick.

It takes a combination of seasoning and temp setting to get something approaching nonstick, but if we're being honest, it's still not quite as slippery as Teflon. For most people though, I think it gets good enough.

> To a new user coming from Teflon, they absolutely stick.

That's exactly what I read everywhere before buying the pans a couple years ago, I was fully expecting things to stick a lot but somehow never had issues...

I have found seasoning doesn't affect the stickiness of the pan. My MIL left my carbon steel pan sitting in water, so I had to grind it to the bone to remove the rust. But even with no seasoning, I was able to cook eggs no problem. The key is temperature control. However, the pan started getting rusty from just sitting out, so I ended up re-seasoning it anyway.

I find with this and many other things, the answer is "butter".

Even 2.5ml of oil and 2.5ml of butter mixed together will result in eggs that flip perfectly and taste 100x better than teflon eggs.

The whole point of non-stick pans is not to need any fat/oil, not even a little bit, though. No matter how often people tell me, stainless steel, carbon steel or cast iron, none are as good and low effort as a simple non-stick pan.

I’m find it troublesome to fry without oil or butter on any pan and I only had Teflon ones.

I don't think it's really lower effort if you account for the care with which you need to cook with teflon (no metal utensil), wash it (no dishwasher) and store it (no stacking). Unless you replace it every ~year I suppose.

There's plenty of things you can cook without fat in a stainless steel, too (pretty much all meats).

And fat isn't just for nonstickiness properties, it's a part of making food taste good. If you want/need to avoid fat for health reasons, that's fair.

You also just can't sear in a teflon, as you're not supposed to preheat the pan.

I almost never reach for my teflon for the opposite reason as you: I find it more effort. The one thing I really use it for is fried eggs, or when I really can't be bothered to wait a few mins for the stainless to preheat

I mostly use wooden cookware, and I throw that and non-stick pans in the dishwasher, teflon is so chemically stable that it shouldn't matter. But yes, I just buy a new pan every ~2 years, sometimes 3.

Why do you feel a need to buy a new pan? If something about the coating has degraded, where do you think the offed material has ended up?

Yeah it's degrading. Half in the food, half down the sink I'd say?

But what is it gonna do? The teflon isn't gonna do anything, maybe the binders/glue, but aslong as there's no new discoveries...

Teflon is known to not interact when it is in its stable long polymer state. But if we accept that it is breaking away from that state, we know it is not stable, and is potentially reactive.

Personally, a touch of avocado oil in a coast iron is much (much) lower risk (and price) than taking bets on whether this particular PFAS matrix will see the same fate as all the prior (now banned) ones or if we have somehow finally solved PFAS once and for all.

Not to mention all the known-bad environmental PFAS’s the manufacture and disposal of these 2 year pans creates.

Unless you're using a very small pan, there's no way 5ml of oil is going to provide enough coating for "eggs" (plural) "that flip perfectly". Also, the "taste 100x better" claim is so hyperbolic that I have to internally downgrade it to "I like it more".

I maintain that "100x better" is an understatement for teflon eggs vs eggs fried in butter.

Also, there's almost never a good reason to be so extremely strict about fat consumption that 5ml or 10ml or 15ml is a problem, especially if you're eating eggs in the first place. If your diet is that strict, boil the egg. The old studies linking fat to heart disease are complete bunk.

> The old studies linking fat to heart disease are complete bunk.

You're mischaracterizing those studies. The role of saturated fat in heart disease is not bunk. Eat unsaturated fat.

>I maintain that "100x better" is an understatement for teflon eggs vs eggs fried in butter.

I can't imagine this being true for any holistic metric "taste". The only way is if you used some contrived measure like "amount of caramelized particles from frying pan" (in which there's 0 from teflon pan and non-zero from butter eggs, so it's infinitely better), or you use a non-linear scale (eg. slightly better = 10x, slightly better than that = 100x, etc.)

>The old studies linking fat to heart disease are complete bunk.

Fats are at the very least, calorific. And studies showing weight gain to all cause mortality are robust. According to the USDA a tablespoon of butter is 100 calories. An egg on the other hand is 155. Even if you use some optimistic estimates (eg. 3 eggs, half the butter remains on the pan), that's still 10% extra calories. I'd rather spend my calorie budget on other delicious things than slightly more buttery fried eggs.

How did you get to a tablespoon of butter?

Also, calories is why you're eating in the first place. The butter is part of the breakfast. If you're getting fat, that's not the fault of the butter per se, but of all the calories put together, and plain chicken breasts are a better option.

>How did you get to a tablespoon of butter?

Your last comment: >there's almost never a good reason to be so extremely strict about fat consumption that 5ml or 10ml or 15ml is a problem

Which one is it? Is butter/fat usage something you need to watch out for, or does it not matter so you don't have to watch it?

>If you're getting fat, that's not the fault of the butter per se, but of all the calories put together

That might be true, but it's still fair game to single out cooking oils for something that needs to be reduced. A can of coke (140 calories) is only 7% of your daily recommended intake, but it'd be absurd to recommend leaving it in someone's diet, or claim "it's almost never a good reason to be so extremely strict about your diet that 1 can of coke a day is a problem". If anything, you should be prioritizing the can of coke vs cooking oils. A can (or even half) provides a distinct experience in your diet, whereas adding butter only makes your eggs taste slightly more buttery.

> and plain chicken breasts are a better option.

so... boiled chicken breasts? I'll stick with my teflon pan, thanks.

You’re missing a rather fundamental way that nonstick pans (teflon or “ceramic”) differ from metal or seasoned metal: nonstick coated pans are usually oleophobic, and oils do not wet or otherwise coat them well. So you can’t cook your eggs on a very thin layer of butter or oil. But steel and seasoned steel will be wetted by hot oil or butter, and you can properly fry your eggs.

> I'd rather spend my calorie budget

Butter (and fat in general) is very satiating compared to other calorie sources.

Shifting more calories to fat can make it much easier to eat fewer calories overall.

Fat + protein = happiness, at least for me

> Also there’s never a good reason to be extremely strict about fat consumption that 5 or 10 or 15ml is a problem

A tablespoon of butter (or olive oil) is roughly 100 calories, which is about 15% of a meal. It’s _roughly_ equivalent to 10 minutes of moderate exercise running.

If you have one fried egg in a tbsp of oil and a slice of toast, the oil is half the calories of the snack.

> The old studies linking fat to heart disease are complete bunk

I’m going to need a source in that wild claim. We definitely know that it was overblown, and the cure (let’s put sugar in instead of fat) might have been worse than what it prevented, but I don’t think there’s any doubt of the consensus that saturated fats in particular (one tbsp of butter is _about_ 40% of your guideline saturated fat in a balanced diet).

There are other reasons for reducing the intake of fat. Some people can only digest very small amounts of fat (excluding MCTs)

> and, shockingly, they don't stick.

I have stainless steel pans and have never experienced this.

Carbon steel pans are seasoned and generally will be stored with a light coat of oil. You'll add oil while cooking, as well. My carbon steel pans don't stick – an egg will happily glide on the surface.

Stainless steel pans are not seasoned, but can still be relatively non-stick as long as they are heated properly prior to use. Heating them closes the pores in the pan's surface, making the surface smoother. Add oil after the pan is properly heated. This youtube video explains the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB-SCA1reqE&t=1s

Stainless steel doesn't have any pores, and they certainly don't "close" with a 200 degree difference (how even? It's steel).

The video just shows a nice hot pan with oil in it, no matter the pan's made of, under those conditions of course stuff isn't gonna stick.

There is no oil used in the video that I linked. Did you watch another video?

The water glides across the pan due to the Leidenfrost effect. That’s the point when you add the oil.

I suspect there are some truisms involved here, but the common wisdom is that there is a combination of contractions in microscopic imperfections of the surface of the pan from the heat (more accurately, expansion causing the gaps to close) and the laidenfrost effect keeping the food from sticking once the pan has reached sufficient temperature.

Regardless of the true mechanism, my own experience suggests that most complaints about sticking with stainless steel can be avoided by properly heating the pan before adding the oil and food.

For what it’s worth, here is one manufacturer referencing a porous surface:

https://www.heritagesteel.us/pages/cooking-techniques#:~:tex....

Of course there is, at 1:30, the lady even says it.

Ah, forgive me. I was going off memory and thought you meant during the heat testing portion which only used water for the test.

It seems you take issue with calling it non-stick when oil is involved? To that end, sure, Teflon-like pans beat everything. But I don’t know many people cooking without oil even in Teflon-like pans.

When people say that properly heating a stainless steel pan will allow non-stick cooking there is certainly an implied asterisk involved re: oil. That’s because it is in direct contrast to a cold stainless steel pan which will cause foods to stick even with oil.

This reminded me of this funny skit video I saw recently about cast iron seasoning [0].

I also mostly use stainless steel, carbon steel and enameled cast iron pans, but do still occasionally reach for the non-stick for more sensitive things like an omelettes.

[0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=47Wv44OwAzw

You might not preheat it enough? It takes a few minutes, check for the leidenfrost effect for a visual indicator that it's hot enough

stainless sticks like crazy.

It's only carbon steel and cast iron that can be seasoned and then don't stick much. It's still not as magic as teflon but it's pretty good with a level of care/practice that isn't too high.

Stainless is totally different and is really only good for sauces not frying, because it sticks worse than anything else.

"sauces" does also sometimes mean frying and sticking, but only as a first step and then liquid is added which takes up and uses the stuck carmelized bits. And that ends up making the pan easier to clean later as the stuck bits are loosened and dissolved by the following sauce.

Those same sorts of things, especially anything tomato or lemon, would actually not be so great in cast iron because it eats away the seasoning. So different pans for different jobs.

Seasoning doesnt matter. In all 3 cases, the key factor is temperature control. I can make eggs in all three types of pans with no sticking and no seasoning. Seasoning is only to protect the metal from rust.

Proper scrambled eggs only works in telfon for me. By proper I mean nice and creamy with small curds, not some dried out brain goop.

I totally love my stainless tho.

I would say stainless steel is non- stick with some fat and a hot pan. I would say my Teflon pan is _slippery_ even when cold.

> Bonus point your fried eggs get a delicious wok hei.

Ok, convert me:

What is "wok hei," and why can't you get it in a Teflon pan?

"wok hei" is the charred, smoky taste from Chinese stir-fry dishes, which you can only get at very high temperatures, usually with an open flame.

You do not want to expose Teflon pans to high temperatures because it can degrade the non-stick coating. This is why most woks are made of carbon steel, which work fine over a large flame.

Note: if you're stuck with an induction stove (like I am) you're not going to get wok hei even at the highest setting. It's possible to cheat with a butane torch, or by taking it outside with an outdoor wok burner.

It's just a somewhat poetic way to describe the flavors you get when cooking with really high heat really fast. You can't get it on teflon because you're using temps 100+ degrees above what teflon can handle without decomposing.

Can you safely get those temps on an electric oven?

Teflon breaks down into toxic fumes at high temperatures, regardless of what the source of the heat is.

In fact if you have birds, it’s best to not have teflon at all, because they are so sensitive to teflon fume poisoning: https://beaknwings.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Teflon-Tox...

To clarify, you can't use any teflon or ceramic nonstick coating at the temps required, regardless of heating method. The coatings will degrade, and possibly poison you.

That being said, you don't need to be using gas. It is possible to get good wok hei on an induction wok, despite what the foodie peanut gallery says. Not on a 120V unit, though. You need to use a commercial multi-kilowatt setup.

What exactly are you saying the problem with ceramic is? Could you be more specific?

The risks of teflon are well known: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-stick_surface#Health_conce...

The risks of ceramic coatings less so, but still concerning: https://foodpackagingforum.org/news/nanoparticles-released-b...

Either way, neither is safe for higher heat cooking. At the very least, ceramics will rapidly degrade if used for such.

So now I have to ask-- what's the health risk of eating singed pieces of egg with each breakfast?

Depends relative on the singeing and carbonization and other chemical reactions

You can turn any stainless steel pot/pan into a nonstick via the Leidenfrost effect[1]. Only takes a 1-2m extra, and is quite satisfying to watch as well. We have a few carbon steel dishes for intense nonstick cooking but the kids love to see the water balls dance around when they cook.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3laDpr4kvw

I’ve never found this compelling. Sure, if you cook at silly hot temperatures, then certain things won’t stick. What if you don’t want to cook at silly temperatures, though?

These aren't silly temps. Another guideline I've seen is to heat to 2/3 the max of your range. Tends to work on all the ranges I've used.

Lower temperatures I typically use for reheating or for sauces.

As a proud user of an actually temperature controlled pan, I can do the experiment easily: I cook most meats at a temperature decently below the Leidenfrost temperature, with excellent results. Most veggies, too, but not pancakes. I also find rather hard to imagine that a hamburger or a carrot an egg is actually floating over a cushion of steam while cooking instead of contacting the pan or the oil on the pan. (Even ignoring the implausibility of the Leidenfrost effect supporting a piece of squishy, irregular food and the implausibility of the idea that the pan remains above the Leidenfrost temperature for very long while cooking most foods, much of what’s noteworthy about the Leidenfrost effect is that it limits heat transfer from the pan to the suspended liquid. You are not caramelizing or getting much of any Maillard reaction on a surface that is only in contact with steam at slightly above ambient pressure — it’s too cold!)

That video uses up 60% of its runtime before even approaching its stated topic, grumble grumble.

https://youtu.be/w3laDpr4kvw?t=216