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Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by amelius on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:28PM (#42352636)
Too bad climate change is happening now, so the model will have to extrapolate.
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by akira2501 on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:37PM (#42352698)
Forecast models predict 7 to 14 days ahead. They have not and never will be able to predict further than that. We don't even need them to.
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by unsupp0rted on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:50PM (#42352774)
Never will? I wouldn't be surprised if predicting climate + weather 12 months out is a simpler problem than most medical problems at which AI is currently being pointed.
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:53PM (#42352793)
> wouldn't be surprised if predicting climate + weather 12 months out is a simpler problem than most medical problems at which AI is currently being pointed

Simple systems can be famously unpredictable [1]. Our bodies manage entropy; that should make them complex but predictable. The weather, on the other hand, has no governors or raison d'être.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by tomjakubowski on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:25PM (#42352968)
The three body problem lacks a closed form solution. How does that mean it's unpredictable, though? I thought that numerical methods can be used to make n-body predictions to arbitrary precision. Are these simulations less accurate than I am thinking? How do engineers and scientists working on space probes plan their trajectories and such?
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:32PM (#42353007)
> numerical methods can be used to make n-body predictions to arbitrary precision

Arbitrary precision, not arbitrary length. Even "from [a] mathematical viewpoint, given an exact initial condition, we can gain mathematically reliable trajectories of chaotic dynamic systems" to only a "finite...interval" [1]. (This is due to "numerical noises, i.e. truncation and round-off error, where truncation error is determined by numerical algorithms and round-off error is due to the limited precision of numerical data, respectively.")

For a physical system like the weather, uncertainty "mainly comes from limited precision of measurement," though there is also the "inherently uncertain/random property of nature, caused by such as thermal fluctuation, wave-particle duality of de Broglie’s wave, and so on."

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10075...

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by echoangle on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:48PM (#42353101)
Finite interval doesn’t mean it can’t be arbitrary. I’m not saying it can be in this example but your counterpoint doesn’t follow from the quote.

For example, I can calculate the Fibonacci sequence to an arbitrary length but not infinite.

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 07, 2024 @05:02PM (#42353197)
> Finite interval doesn’t mean it can’t be arbitrary

Skim the paper. Numerical noise means you cannot calculate the 3-body problem to an arbitrary length. There is a finite, mathematical limit even with perfect knowledge of initial conditions.

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by echoangle on Saturday December 07, 2024 @05:14PM (#42353275)
Isn’t the paper about the uncertainties that inherently exist with physical systems?

There isn’t any claim that mathematically exact starting values can’t be propagated with arbitrary precision to arbitrary length, and I would claim that this is possible (but not practical due to compute being limited, of course).

But there’s no hard limit of precision and length where a simulation can’t be made if the starting conditions are exact. The point of the paper is that starting conditions are never exact which limits the length you can propagate.

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 07, 2024 @05:15PM (#42353283)
> Isn’t the paper about the uncertainties that inherently exist with physical systems?

It talks about that. Which is relevant when we're talking about the weather. But it opens by discussing the hard mathematical limits to numerical methods.

> there’s no hard limit of precision and length where a simulation can’t be made if the starting conditions are exact

Wrong.

Read. The. Paper. Numerical methods for chaotic systems are inherently, mathematically uncertain.

Beyond a certain number of steps, adding precision doesn't yield a more precise answer, it just produces a different one. At a certain point, the difference between the different answers you get with more precision covers the entire solution space.

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by strls on Saturday December 07, 2024 @05:33PM (#42353375)
You can solve to arbitrary precision but you can't measure and specify initial conditions to arbitrary precision, making the solution wrong outside of a small time interval.
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 07, 2024 @05:34PM (#42353383)
> can solve to arbitrary precision but you can't measure and specify initial conditions to arbitrary precision

Even with perfect knowledge of initial conditions, numerical noise limits the forecast interval.

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by wongarsu on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:06PM (#42352861)
Predicting that next December will be cold, sure. Predicting how cold or how much rainfall or snowfall there will be in next December would be difficult, but you could get in the right ballpark. Predicting in which week it will snow a year from now? Not a chance.
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by akira2501 on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:00PM (#42352826)
In order to predict the climate you need to predict volcanic eruptions. Good luck.
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by JumpCrisscross on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:52PM (#42352785)
> have not and never will be able to predict further than that

Is this a chaos theory prediction? Why 14 days?

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by akira2501 on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:59PM (#42352819)
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by zsims on Saturday December 07, 2024 @03:47PM (#42352761)
We do, I want to know if it's going to rain on my birthday
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by aithrowawaycomm on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:22PM (#42352953)
The point is that the underlying physics of classical models should still hold true as the climate changes - and where they don't hold, we will have causal insight as to why. But this isn't necessarily true for an ML model: as climate changes and develops new patterns, there is no reason to think ML will adapt to it (and a ton of reasons to guess it won't).
Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by achrono on Saturday December 07, 2024 @07:59PM (#42354144)
> We don't even need them to.

Why not? What's so special about 7-14 days? I can see plenty of reasons one might want to predict accurately the weather even a year out, just one example: will the weather support an outdoor bbq event this late in fall next year?

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by akira2501 on Saturday December 07, 2024 @09:01PM (#42354426)
> will the weather support an outdoor bbq event this late in fall next year?

Sure, but there could be a disease outbreak, or a pork meat recall that prevents it anyways. The weather, as a factor, is generally insignificant with respect to loss of life events. To the extent they are we can see those events far enough in advance at 7 to 14 days to compensate correctly.

A better example would be "can we launch a space craft from this launch site next year." Even then, we never pick a launch day, we establish a launch window, because we already know, the weather changes fast enough that it's unlikely to remain identical for several days in a row. So conditions on a single day are effectively meaningless.

The Space Shuttle program got even better with this by feeding in wind data from high atmosphere probes back into the launch vehicle software so it could plan it's maneuvers ahead of the wind so it could reduce vehicle stresses to within tolerable parameters. They went from a 20% launch probability to an 80% launch probability with this system.

I mean.. enjoy your BBQ either way just bring some popup tents.

Re:Google's AI weather prediction model is pretty darn good by otterley on Sunday December 08, 2024 @10:56AM (#42357814)
Farmers definitely want long range weather predictions so they can better plan what crops to plant and avoid crop failures. Crop failures due to weather have caused devastating losses.