News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by rayiner on Friday December 06, 2024 @06:12PM (#42345596)
Who scrutinizes the result? If the people actually voted for that candidate, they won’t trust anybody to look behind the outcome to assess whether it was “fair” or not.

I feel like a large swath of the developed world has forgotten why we have elections. We do it because we don’t trust each other, we don’t agree what’s “fair,” etc. So we establish elections as a way of resolving disputes between people who don’t trust each other. It’s exactly like software security. You create a minimal trusted kernel—the machinery of voting and counting the votes—and then build decision making off the forced consensus generated by the elections.

If there was anybody whom everyone trusted enough to second guess the elections, to look at voters’ motivations and fuzzy ideas of fairness you wouldn’t need elections.

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by perihelions on Friday December 06, 2024 @08:07PM (#42346316)
- "If there was anybody whom everyone trusted enough to second guess the elections, to look at voters’ motivations and fuzzy ideas of fairness you wouldn’t need elections."

Lawrence Lessig (well known to HN for his open source law work) proposed that the US Electoral College was created with the purpose of second-guessing elections. (He didn't like the outcome of the 2016 one and was trying to rationalize mechanisms of overturning it).

Lessig:

- "The framers believed, as Alexander Hamilton put it, that "the sense of the people should operate in the choice of the [president]." But no nation had ever tried that idea before. So the framers created a safety valve on the people's choice. Like a judge reviewing a jury verdict, where the people voted, the electoral college was intended to confirm — or not — the people's choice. Electors were to apply, in Hamilton's words, "a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice" — and then decide. The Constitution says nothing about "winner take all." It says nothing to suggest that electors' freedom should be constrained in any way. Instead, their wisdom — about whether to overrule "the people" or not — was to be free of political control yet guided by democratic values. They were to be citizens exercising judgment, not cogs turning a wheel."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-constitution-let... ("The Constitution lets the electoral college choose the winner. They should choose Clinton")

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by afthonos on Friday December 06, 2024 @08:26PM (#42346422)
I actually think the electoral college is a solution to a problem so obvious to anyone living then that no one really thought to name it: validating an election.

It’s 1789, and you’re designing a voting-based system. You’ve decided each state gets votes proportional to its population in the presidential election. How do you validate that the result you got from Georgia, two weeks’ travel from NYC, is trustworthy? Seals? They can be tampered with. What about special messengers? Someone could impersonate them.

Solution: send dignitaries that can vouch for each other. The elite of neighboring states is likely to know each other, and you establish a chain of trust up and down the coast. Great!

Except these are people with better things to do than to be errand boys. There has to be something in it for them. Solution: they get to cast the final ballot for President. They are electors.

(This is a theory that I have not validated at all, to be clear.)

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by ANewFormation on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:17PM (#42346965)
An adjacent point is that states are free to run their elections as they see fit with relatively few rules. For example most states have a winner-take-all result for presidential elections where a guy who gets 51% of the vote get 100% of the 'seats', so to speak. But that's not necessary - Maine and Nebraska, by contrast, have proportional systems, where they split their vote proportionally.

So how to interpret the results from one state could be quite different (and potentially subject to rapid change) even if you know the results were genuine. So the results of states always would need to be converted, by the states, into e.g. 15 final votes. So the electoral college emerges quite naturally in this context.

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by Tyrannosaur on Friday December 06, 2024 @11:40PM (#42347322)
Slight correction- Maine and Nebraska do not have proportional systems; they both use the Congressional District Method. Each congressional district votes plurality for an elector, and the 2 remaining electors go to the statewide plurality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_Colleg...

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by int_19h on Monday December 09, 2024 @02:40PM (#42369702)
EC was, first and foremost, an easy way to bolt the (already-agreed for the House) 3/5 Compromise onto presidential elections.
Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by rayiner on Saturday December 07, 2024 @02:26AM (#42347931)
He’s not wrong in that point. But in modern times, electors are chosen by the party or the candidate. Historically, they were chosen by elected state legislatures. Either way, there was a pretty short chain of trust between the voters and the electors.

That trust isn’t there when the oversight is from random people at an election commission or law enforcement agency.

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by Terr_ on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:30AM (#42348455)
I was never a fan of the Electoral College, but I grudgingly accepted the argument that it might be useful as a circuit-breaker where the Somber Elder Statesmen block a crazy-unqualified crook from gaining power.

That was before 2016. Given how it has failed at that--twice now--it provides no benefit to the nation, only democracy-harming costs.

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by Dalewyn on Saturday December 07, 2024 @08:51AM (#42349835)
You're disappointed because that's not what the Electoral College is for at all.

No, the purpose of the Electoral College is actually very simple: Guarantee States' sovereign rights for Presidential elections in a way that every State agrees (Congressional representation!), while maintaining the clear separation between Executive and Legislative branches.

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by barney54 on Saturday December 07, 2024 @11:00AM (#42350576)
How has the Electoral College failed twice?
Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by stouset on Saturday December 07, 2024 @04:06AM (#42348364)
And yet we still have laws surrounding what constitutes fair participation in the election.

If those laws are grossly violated and the candidate wins… then what? “Sorry nothing we can do” just means you’re a sucker if you follow the rules.

All the last decade has shown me is that democracy is far more fragile than any of us really realized. Populations are frighteningly easy to mislead and misinform en masse. Enough voters to swing most elections vote primarily on vibes more than anything resembling a coherent or informed political philosophy.

Drought caused food prices to rise? Better kick out the current guy. Random weakening of our biggest trade partner’s currency causing lower prices of goods? The current guy is a genius!

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by rayiner on Saturday December 07, 2024 @09:59AM (#42350196)
> All the last decade has shown me is that democracy is far more fragile than any of us really realized. Populations are frighteningly easy to mislead and misinform en mass

This is absolutely the wrong lesson to take away from the events of the last decade. The whole point of democracy is that we don’t have a priestly class that gets to impose their views by fiat, like the Brahmins of ancient India.

Re:Romanian court annuls result of presidential election fir... by stouset on Saturday December 07, 2024 @12:36PM (#42351284)
I’m not saying what we have isn’t an improvement on that. But it’s also maybe uncomfortably closer to that than we’re willing to admit to ourselves. And it is terrifyingly fragile.

Spread the right kind of vibes and misinformation and you can get enough of the population to believe anything. Hell, upset enough people and they’ll start to do it themselves.

We’ve already seen several countries essentially vote themselves into dictatorships based on misinformation. This may have been a near miss.