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Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by matthewaveryusa on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:33AM (#42340700)
I've heard that it's a terrible idea with the battery still in. Curious why this is a non-issue for a UPS -- is it the scale, type of battery (lithium ion vs lifepo4), quality, charge cycle, a bit of all of the above?
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by __MatrixMan__ on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:52AM (#42340871)
I think some devices can now be configured to just charge partially (or come that way by default and then tell you that the partial charge is 100%). So this may not be a an issue in all cases, but...

I dedicated an Nvidia shield K1 to be a Sonos interface. Just mounted it to a monitor arm and left it plugged in for something like four years. The mount was this beefy metal thing, a little steel cage for the tablet, but as soon as I unscrewed it enough to remove the tablet from the mount the tablet undramatically exploded. It ballooned to a width that was thrice the original thickness of the tablet, pushed the plastic apart, and it was clear that the case was never going to come back together again. I was afraid to touch it, lest it rupture.

It seems like it would only be a terrible idea beyond a certain scale. The pillowing battery is just assisted disassembly. And now it's easy to get the battery out.

Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by ssl-3 on Friday December 06, 2024 @11:02AM (#42340972)
UPSs still typically use lead acid batteries. These don't particularly mind being at ~100% SoC for years at a time (they like staying charged), which is very good for this application.

And it's easy to keep them at around 100%. For instance: For a nominal 12v battery, one can very nearly just feed it 13.8v (plus or minus some temperature compensation) and have results that are actually pretty good and close-enough to 100%.

And when things go very wrong, lead acid batteries tend not to catch on fire.

It's a natural fit for UPS duty.

The lithium batteries in cell phones are a different thing. They hate being at 100% SoC and degrade fairly quickly in that state.

They can be pretty happy at around 50% SoC, but it's hard to actually keep them there because of the way the voltage ramps [don't] work with lithium chemistries: It's almost flat through the middle of the curve.

And cell phones don't let us do that anyway: It'd be great if there was a "Compute mode: Just do your best to keep this battery near 50%" setting to click on, but there is not. (And we could hack that in, except: We don't own our phones.)

And when things go wrong, they can become exothermic in ways that are not exactly ideal for an unattended device sitting on a shelf.

Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by UniverseHacker on Friday December 06, 2024 @11:12AM (#42341070)
I use a chargie device which is a hardware level charge limiter
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by ssl-3 on Friday December 06, 2024 @11:38AM (#42341309)
Cute. I didn't know those existed, and they do make sense.

It's only solving part of the problem though: Sure, it can keep the charge at around a self-reported 50%. But the device itself doesn't necessarily have a good idea of what 50% even means, especially as the months and years tick by and cells age, unless it is allowed go closer to the extremes (closer to 0 and closer to 100, sometimes).

The reasons for this get weird. Near the edges of the curves (0 and 100), the BMS can use voltages to figure out where things are. This works well.

In the middle of the curve, voltages are damn near flat and cease to be an indicator of state-of-charge, so the BMS counts coulombs instead. This works too (for awhile).

Except they're not ideal batteries. They age even if they're not being used at all, and shit happens just as it does for any other non-ideal entity. So on a long-enough timeline, even a perfect coulomb counter doesn't necessarily have any way to accurately report state of charge.

The way that this problem is dealt with on a phone that actually gets used like phones get used is that the BMS can reset the coulomb counter during the peaks and dips of a normal charge cycle, based on voltage.

But charge cycling doesn't happen even with a Chargie-equipped phone sitting on a shelf and running Docker containers, does it?

Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by actionfromafar on Friday December 06, 2024 @12:08PM (#42341682)
Put a wall plug timer on it, charge it 50% of the time.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by ssl-3 on Friday December 06, 2024 @12:15PM (#42341744)
No.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by freedomben on Friday December 06, 2024 @01:05PM (#42342322)
You should definitely add a /s lest anybody take this seriously. It's quite funny though. Especially recommended if you're hoping to burn your house down.

For people that didn't know, this is probably the fastest and riskiest way to destroy your battery quickly

Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by sigh_again on Saturday December 07, 2024 @11:53AM (#42350970)
If you're going to do this be sure you swap between charging and discharging as often as possible, go as low as your timer will allow. 30 minutes charging, 30 minutes discharging should allow you to reach house fire in less than a month.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by pomian on Friday December 06, 2024 @01:37PM (#42342683)
Like your comments. Question. How does a BMS count coulombs? I mean what is the technology used?
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by Sanzig on Friday December 06, 2024 @03:24PM (#42343981)
Q = ∫idt, so you just need something that regularly samples the current (typically measured via a shunt resistor) and accumulates it over time. This is typically done by a dedicated low power chip with an integrated differential amplifier for reading out the sense resistor, ADC, and nonvolatile memory - these are often referred to as "gas gauge" chips. This functionality can also be found on higher end all-in-one battery management chips.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by pomian on Saturday December 07, 2024 @01:50AM (#42347771)
Great. Thanks.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by UniverseHacker on Friday December 06, 2024 @02:12PM (#42343134)
You can add custom charge cycling on a schedule if using the Chargie app. One could for example have it normally stay at 50% but do a full charge/discharge cycle weekly.

Overall though, it would probably make the most sense to physically remove the battery from any phone used as a dedicated webserver, and then have it connected to an external UPS instead.

Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by ssl-3 on Friday December 06, 2024 @05:08PM (#42345069)
Also cute. That's pretty excellent. I think I'd like to bring such a rig down to 10% and up to 90% once a month or so, based on what I think I know.

And yes, agreed absolutely: It safer to pull the battery, and not particularly difficult or detrimental to do so for the kinds of applications I'm envisioning here that involve a disused phone doing server-ish stuff.

Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by selectodude on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:43AM (#42340799)
It’s not a non-issue. UPS batteries have a rather short lifespan.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by HPsquared on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:54AM (#42340888)
That's surprising. My laptop battery is like 10 years old and still fine. Light usage and mild storage conditions. Surely UPS batteries are similar.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by bityard on Friday December 06, 2024 @12:01PM (#42341579)
UPS batteries tend to have lead acid batteries, and the lifespan on those is generally between 3-5 years. Lithium batteries in laptops _can_ last quite a bit longer if made well and under the right care.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by pmontra on Friday December 06, 2024 @11:07AM (#42341023)
My UPS manual says 3 years. They have a different chemistry than phone batteries. On the other side, they should be quite similar to car batteries which could live much longer that 3 years, but they spend most of their time waiting in a parking slot and then a few starts per day or less. An UPS doesn't work like that.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by bityard on Friday December 06, 2024 @12:03PM (#42341612)
A good UPS will perform regular load tests to gauge battery performance/degradation. They switch over to battery power around once a week and measure voltage before, during, and after. So even if the power goes out, they are still being exercised _somewhat_.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by password4321 on Friday December 06, 2024 @05:18PM (#42345173)
Can you link to one of these on Amazon or your preferred vendor which you recommend for home office use?
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by TsiCClawOfLight on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:55AM (#42356180)
Eaton Ellipse Pro is great.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by theanonymousone on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:45AM (#42340808)
Really? I plugged my old phone some days ago and set up a ssh daemon on it, just to see if it stays connected. Should I be worried?
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by jraph on Friday December 06, 2024 @10:52AM (#42340873)
Yes, it's potentially hazardous in the long run. You can hope that it only kills the battery fast, and that it doesn't make it swell or something.

(absolutely not an expert, though, this is why I asked for experiences :-))

Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by z3t4 on Friday December 06, 2024 @11:21AM (#42341154)
It usually take a few years for the battery to swell, but it will happen. I have a phone as GSM modem to send and recieve SMS for automatic tasks. I've had 3/3 batteries on two different phones swell so far.
Re:Install postmarketOS on Android phone and use Docker as a... by mmis1000 on Saturday December 07, 2024 @07:22AM (#42349316)
Well, surprisingly. You actually need to swap the battery in UPS about every 3 years. Or the monitor feature in UPS is going to complain _loudly_.(I have one broken a few months ago) So there is not much difference here.

Although swapping battery of ups is surprisingly easy. Buy a new one from online store with a few dollar. Disconnect the connection to old battery.(a REALLY important step). Remove old one. Slap the new one in. Connect the wire. And pre-charge it for a few hours. Then it can just go back online like a new one.