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Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by mindcrime on Monday July 09, 2012 @04:51PM (#4220341)
Updated Office 2010 style "ribbon" Explorer UI.

Bleah. Here's a thought: "Newer" and "innovative" do not necessarily equal "better." As far as I'm concerned, the Ribbon UI sucks big hairy ones, and is just one more reason to run screaming away from Windows 8.

Then again, since Windows 8 isn't F/OSS, I have exactly zero interest in running it to begin with, so MS aren't losing a customer here.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by chimi on Monday July 09, 2012 @04:56PM (#4220368)
You use linkedin, twitter, gmail, and quora. Those aren't open source. How do you reconcile that? Sincere question.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by tikhonj on Monday July 09, 2012 @05:20PM (#4220560)
FOSS is fundamentally about freedom--the freedom to control the software you use.

Even if LinkedIn or Twitter were open source, I would still not be able to control them--I don't have a spare server lying around and I certainly don't have a way to get everybody else on my own system! So if I took LinkedIn's source and improved it, it would be useless: I would first have to get a server to run it and then I would have to get everybody I know to switch to it. This means that, even if LinkedIn was open source, I would still have to use their implementation on their servers; it would not have much of a practical effect.

Put another way, Reddit and HN are open source. But this does not mean I can meaningfully modify or control the code; this control is naturally left to the people with the servers. There is very little practical difference for me as a user between an open source Reddit and a closed source Reddit.

Now, this is not to say that web apps should not be open sourced--quite the contrary! Open sourcing is great for reasons besides freedom: you contribute to the common good, give more people insight into the development process and help other people with similar projects. But it is less critical than having open source programs that run on my own computer.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by mindcrime on Monday July 09, 2012 @05:02PM (#4220410)
For one, I don't view services like Quora as being in the same class as "software I run on my own machine" in the first place. It's a subtle distinction, granted. But I've just never viewed those services that way.

Secondly, because there aren't adequate F/OSS replacements available. I can use Fedora Linux with KDE and get an experience that's better than Windows. I don't know of a Quora like service that makes their code available, that gives a better experience than Quora. That said, if such a thing were available, I would prefer it.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by Herring on Monday July 09, 2012 @05:29PM (#4220621)
I don't see it as a subtle distinction. Simple using shouldn't grant rights. If I touch an ATM, or if I borrow someone's computer there's no reason I should be able to demand the source.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by rbanffy on Monday July 09, 2012 @05:50PM (#4220741)
Free Software is about user rights. If you are fine with having your rights restricted by the software provider, then this kind of freedom is not for you.

But I like my own freedoms and I'll avoid buying software that prevents me from exercising them.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by yawgmoth on Monday July 09, 2012 @04:57PM (#4220374)
It seems to me that, by and large, those who hate massive UI changes are those who were well acquainted with the old ones. Also, Metro != Ribbon.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by Kadin on Monday July 09, 2012 @05:10PM (#4220484)
Well, yeah -- the people who are going to object most strenuously to a huge UI change are those who are invested in the current interface, and are going to have to waste a lot of time relearning things the 'new way.'

But they also tend to be the people most invested in the software itself, so if you're a company that sells software you should probably torment them at your peril. Drive them away without successfully luring any new users, and you may not end up with very many at the end of the transaction.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by SoftwareMaven on Monday July 09, 2012 @07:17PM (#4221115)
Innovative really should equal better. Put another way, if it isn't better, I don't see how it can be called innovative.

The caveat, of course, is that, just because something is better for most people doesn't mean it will be better for all. And, of course, there is a large group of people who just refuse to accept change.

(I've used the Office ribbon exactly once and couldn't figure out what I needed to do. I don't consider myself well versed enough to say whether it is innovative or not.)

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by cooldeal on Monday July 09, 2012 @04:56PM (#4220367)
I don't understand the fuss, it is minimized by default and works well on a touch screen by showing a lot of common commands. It's like people love to hate it or something, especially ones that don't even use Windows daily.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by CountSessine on Monday July 09, 2012 @05:28PM (#4220609)
Can't comment on the tablet experience - maybe it works.

But Office on the PC wasn't made for a tablet - they intended the ribbon to be used by PC users, and it's terrible. Removing the menus eliminates discover-ability. The common case now when using a recent ribbon-enabled Office application, for me at least, is vaguely recalling a function that I used in a previous version and then hunting around for 2 or 3 minutes through the UI and not finding it. Without doing google searches, I'd never be able to find these features. And each of these feature-hunts adds up to a lot of wasted time.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by batiudrami on Monday July 09, 2012 @08:54PM (#4221411)
You have to be kidding me. Discoverability is lower in a system which uses logically arranged tools, with larger buttons for more frequently used options than in a system which, perplexingly, hides everything behind nonlabeled buttons, in menus and sub-menus and ridiculous dialog boxes?

The ribbon is a massive, massive step up in usability, the difference is you already knew how to get to features in the old version, so there was a learning curve. Show two people who are brand new to office Office XP vs Office 2010, and I an completely certain that they'll have an easier time with 2010 (especially Excel, the usability difference there is incredible).

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by xtracto on Monday July 09, 2012 @10:00PM (#4221633)
>Discoverability is lower in a system which uses logically arranged tools, with larger buttons for more frequently used options.

Sure, if you use the "more frequently used options" but try using something a bit more obscure and you are out of luck.

At least with the menu system you had those "breadcrumbs" to give you an idea of where it could be.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by mindcrime on Tuesday July 10, 2012 @02:18PM (#4225274)
Discoverability is lower in a system which uses logically arranged tools, with larger buttons for more frequently used options than in a system which, perplexingly, hides everything behind nonlabeled buttons, in menus and sub-menus and ridiculous dialog boxes?

If you're trying to do anything other than the obvious stuff, then yes. I struggle to find anything in Office w/ Ribbon, whereas I could almost always find what I was looking for in a few seconds worth of menu hunting before. Personally, I find discoverability to be absolute shyte with the Ribbon interface.

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by DeepDuh on Monday July 09, 2012 @08:23PM (#4221324)
That's EXACTLY the problem right there. You know what's probably the single best feature on OSX that nobody else has? The spotlight help menu. You never ever have to hunt for a command on your own again - and it even shows you where it is and what hotkey it uses for the next time you need it. It's both letting users discover and empowers them to use a product to its full potential at some point.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by beernutz on Monday July 09, 2012 @06:11PM (#4220835)
I COMPLETELY agree! Those of us that used menus or hotkeys ended up screwed. Discover-ability is MUCH higher in the pre-ribbon version.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by Elepsis on Monday July 09, 2012 @07:51PM (#4221244)
This is one of the most thoroughly researched and tested facets of Office. I assure you that you're wrong on the discoverability of Office features for the average user: it went up by leaps and bounds with the ribbon, and in fact the entire ribbon was designed to address the fact that the most common feature requests for Office were for things that already existed.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by domador on Monday July 09, 2012 @08:50PM (#4221401)
Maybe the ribbon helps new Office users with discoverability, but for a power user like me, it gets in the way and slows me down. For instance, in order to change the font size of highlighted text in Word, I have to keep coming back to the Home tab, even if most of my current work involves a different tab (such as Page Layout or Review). Another way of viewing this is that the Ribbon forces me to work within and switch between certain modes (Insert, Page Layout, a general mode corresponding to the functions on the Home tab, etc.). These modes don't match my own working modes very well. With a toolbar/menu combination, I wasn't forced into these modes as much. Common processes, the ones currently placed in the Home tab, were always right there on the toolbar, and I didn't need to switch back and forth to use them.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by chadzawistowski on Tuesday July 10, 2012 @01:14PM (#4224917)
In Word 2010 at least, a simple right-click on highlighted text brings up something like a mini Home tab. You can change the font, size, color, alignment and everything.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by DeepDuh on Monday July 09, 2012 @08:24PM (#4221330)
Well do ribbons make it better for those users? Maybe a bit. But it's by far not an ideal solution to that problem. OSX's spotlighted help menu is.
Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by mindcrime on Monday July 09, 2012 @04:59PM (#4220383)
OK, to be fair, I've never used the ribbon on a touch based device... just Office on a conventional PC with mouse/keyboard. But that was enough to turn me off on the "ribbon" and nothing I've seen or heard to date has given me sufficient reason to revisit my dislike for it.

But, I only use Windows at my dayjob where I have no choice, and I try to spend as little time as possible paying attention to the fact that it's Windows (hello, Cygwin). I'm probably not exactly the target market for MS on this to begin with. ;-)

Re:Betting the Company on Windows 8 by huggyface on Monday July 09, 2012 @08:06PM (#4221287)
As far as I'm concerned, the Ribbon UI sucks big hairy ones

I am not adverse to change, and had a very open mind about the ribbon in office, but it still hinders me far more than it ever helped. From observations of others there are perilously few who actually appreciate that interface tactic.