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Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by ibejoeb on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:03PM (#42090823)
It was a real win/win. Tens of millions of people lost access to an effective drug in order to penalize maybe a few thousand that were using it as a precursor to making mamp.

But, hey, we beat street meth, right?

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by CrazyStat on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:37PM (#42091023)
> Tens of millions of people lost access

This is a bit hyperbolic. You just have to ask for it at the counter and show ID.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by ibejoeb on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:53PM (#42091109)
Only certain documents are accepted: photo documents issued by a US state and certain federal documents. There are some exceptions in the initial act text, but in practice, nobody is going to accept your nursery school record.

There are certainly 10s of millions of people who don't have direct access to this drug.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by efitz on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:43PM (#42091348)
And if they require a drivers license but their system is based on an electronic reader and that reader is broken, then you are out of luck. No sudafed for you.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by ibejoeb on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:53PM (#42091404)
Pretty sure I've even commented here before about this, but I was refused at an LA Walgreens pharmacy when I presented both a NY ID and a US passport. Would only accept CA ID.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by phaedrus441 on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:08PM (#42091184)
You honestly think there are 10s of millions of people wanting a decongestant in the United States without ID? This is ridiculous and I agree with the other commenter, a bit hyperbolic.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by iterance on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:49PM (#42091386)
26 million Americans lack valid government-issued IDs, and of this 26m, minority groups comprise the vast majority.

https://bluenotary.us/how-many-american-citizens-don-t-have-...

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by phaedrus441 on Friday November 08, 2024 @09:13PM (#42092065)
Wow I was surprised by this figure, so I tried to find the source everyone quotes. It appears to be a 2006 telephone survey of 987 randomly-selected voting age citizens that were then weighted for an underrepresentation of race (so perhaps not that accurate). Anecdotally, I work in a safety net hospital and it is really rare for someone to come in without ID, which is why those numbers seemed so surprising to me...

https://www.brennancenter.org/media/6697/download

I could easily have missed a better or more recent study, so if anyone has one please post it!

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by 1propionyl on Saturday November 09, 2024 @10:15PM (#42098385)
The answer here is to make getting a government issued ID a straightforward matter and a national priority.

I cannot think of another significant country that hasn't had this figured out for decades.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by jujube3 on Sunday November 10, 2024 @06:04PM (#42103218)
Pretending that government IDs are super duper hard to give out is a time-honored American tradition.

After all, imagine if the government had a database with every person's name in it! You'd have like 300 million rows? Nobody's built a computing machine that could do that. And then how would you get the cards to people? You'd have to send out horses and buggies to every corner of the nation. And where would you find enough coachmen to do that, and roads to drive the coaches on???

No, clearly it's unpossible.

So we have to reserve the use of government IDs for really important things, like checking if you can buy cold medicine, and voting must remain insecure.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by tempfile on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @12:17PM (#42127958)
Government IDs are not a solved problem, and you don't seem to have even tried to consider the issues involved. The key distinction between voting and cold medicine is that you have a right to vote, but not to buy cold medicine. So if you lost your ID, or it's expired, it is not an option to just say "that sucks, I guess you can't vote now".

In fact, as a rule, ID is reserved for things that aren't important, because it is a point of failure.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by jujube3 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:27PM (#42128597)
Yes, only advanced countries like India can give everyone an ID. The US is too poor and backwards to give everyone a plastic card.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by tempfile on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:49PM (#42128754)
Do you think citizens of India experience no problems as a consequence of this, or is it just too exciting to be sarcastic on the internet?

Oh, wait, it must be the latter, because finding problems with India's government ID scheme takes five seconds: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/21/n...

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by jujube3 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @06:42PM (#42131477)
The point of India requiring identification for benefits is to prevent waste and fraud. And given the number of poor people in India, and the limited amount of money they have to help them, it seems like quite a good thing to do so.

Identifying people is not hard, even for the poorest countries, and it's quite easy to do with modern technology. There is no good-faith reason to oppose it, any more than there is to oppose driver's licenses.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by tempfile on Thursday November 14, 2024 @08:46AM (#42136088)
Did you read the article I linked? You keep saying this is an easy thing to do, but don't seem to acknowledge any of the problems it causes. It is not easy to identify people. It is easy to identify people with 99% accuracy. If the remaining 1% are unable to access society, that is an unacceptable risk.

Consider for instance the people who currently exist, don't have government ID, and don't have an accurate record of their birth. Such people exist. Should they just die, or something?

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by jujube3 on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @02:16PM (#42197167)
If you don't have a birth certificate, there are other ways to get an ID card. Immigrants do the US do it all the time. Pretending this is some unsolvable problem is ridiculous. It's like saying we can't collect taxes because it's impossible to identify people. When the government needs money, suddenly it's very possible to identify everyone and send them bills. Funny how that works.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by efitz on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:48PM (#42091376)
No, but why the hell should someone else’s misbehavior cost me time and inconvenience?

The cost of these regulations is millions, perhaps billions of dollars in extra effort, bookkeeping and security by tens of thousands of businesses, not to mention lost productivity and frustration on the part of everyone else evolved, and moats of the costs and inconvenience is borne by people outside the government, who are not committing a crime.

It’s bat shit crazy that bureaucrats are allowed to steal this much productivity from the economy.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by ibejoeb on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:30PM (#42091286)
I honestly think it's on that order, yes. Anyone who has had a respiratory infection, a sinus headache, or seasonal allergies. Anyone who would take NyQuil. Over the course of 18 years. Why is that so hard to believe? In fact, now that I think about it more, it's probably a lot more.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by reaperman on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:33PM (#42092555)
Yes - I often lose my wallet/ID and I don’t think I’m in in the 0.1%ile. Even if 1% are like me, thats 30 million Americans.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by _rm on Saturday November 09, 2024 @03:00AM (#42093152)
I think these basic facts should be taught in school. Yes, millions don't have ID.

It seems trite to someone in the middle class, but it genuinely is not a priority to certain demographics, given the challenge of getting it. That challenge may seem trivial to a frequenter of Hacker News, but we're a diverse society.

The only barrier to getting a decongestant should be: having the money to pay for it.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by rconti on Friday November 08, 2024 @08:04PM (#42091755)
Is that true? I honestly don't know. I thought it went away entirely. I guess that's what hiding it behind the counter does to those who aren't in the know.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by CrazyStat on Friday November 08, 2024 @08:46PM (#42091943)
Yes.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by tomatocracy on Friday November 08, 2024 @09:20PM (#42092096)
I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually an underestimate, because this saga has had a knock on effect on decongestant formulations sold outside the US as well. I don't know exactly why this has happened but my guess is it may be due to economies of scale in manufacturing or licencing overheads.

It's hard to find a pharmacy which even sells pseudoephedrine based decongestant if you're in the UK, for example.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by agurk on Saturday November 09, 2024 @05:21AM (#42093616)
Boots (a large UK pharmacy chain) sells it, but it's "behind the counter" so you have to ask for it. They will also only sell you one pack of 12 per visit

It's the same for codeine-mixed products. Recently I got denied a simultaneous purchase of pseudoephedrine and ibuprofen/codeine - I was I was only allowed one.

I'm not sure if it's policy, law or I just looked suspicious.

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by tomatocracy on Saturday November 09, 2024 @03:54PM (#42096842)
Thanks. Looks like the buying limits are a legal requirement: https://www.gov.uk/drug-safety-update/pseudoephedrine-and-ep... ) Seems like it was also classified as Pharmacy only (behind the counter) or prescription instead of just OTC.
Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by cruffle_duffle on Friday November 08, 2024 @07:15PM (#42091517)
> But, hey, we beat street meth, right?

It’s all fentanyl now so in a weird way, maybe?

Re:FDA Proposes Ending Use of Oral Phenylephrine as OTC Nasa... by swores on Saturday November 09, 2024 @09:10AM (#42094507)
No. Fentanyl has become a huge thing in illegal opiates (either used instead of drugs like heroin, or mixed in with heroin to make it seem stronger though more dangerous).

But, while there have been some instances of accidental fentanyl poisoning from use of other classes of drug (eg if a careless dealer/distributor is mixing fentanyl into heroin and doesn't clean the surface before moving on to weigh out bags of cocaine, or whatever) absolutely nobody is choosing to use fentanyl as a replacement for stimulants like meth (which is the drug being discussed above) or cocaine. They're complete opposites.

Of course, there are also trends over years/decades as drugs become more or less popular, either as part of societal trends (eg Ketamine in the UK, having spent a decade or two being forgotten about by the majority of recreational drug users, has apparently made a comeback and is very big in the party scene now especially among younger people), or because of the reasons people take drugs (eg the more people going to nightclubs/raves, the more people will use drugs like cocaine and MDMA; while more people getting depressed and not going out will lead to more people using drugs like opiates, eg heroin/fentanyl, to take away their mental pain - and some drugs, like Ketamine, are actually popular for both those examples, it's a popular party drug and it's often used alone by people wanting to bury their feelings).

So it's possible that the state or the world has led to more people choosing opiates than stimulants, and in the US fentanyl is all over the illegal supply of opiates. But I'm not aware of any logic that would say the increase in fentanyl has or would lead to meth users making the switch.

Side note that I think worth mentioning considering the topic: by FAR the most dangerous aspect of using these illegal drugs is the fact that they are illegal, not the fact that they are drugs. The majority of fentanyl users in the US are either trying to buy heroin but being sold fentanyl (or heroin+fentanyl mixes), and the majority of people actively choosing to use fentanyl illegally are doing it not because it's a nicer drug to use than heroin, but because the supply chain logistics lead to it being significantly cheaper (which is also why it's dangerously used by dealers to make their heroin batches seem stronger).

Heroin itself can of course be life ruining, but if taken on its own (not at the same time as other CNS depressants such as alcohol and benzodiazepines) then it's actually extremely unlikely to cause accidental fatal overdoses, and when it does cause overdoses (with or without whatever drugs being involved) it's 90% because the user didn't know how strong it was and expected it to be similar in purity to what they had been using before, and 10% because of lack of harm reduction education about how much to use to be safe, what drugs to avoid mixing it with, etc. (90/10% are just my ballpark guesstimates). Because we spend all the money interesting and locking drug uses up, rather than educating and supporting them in minimising risk while they do use and offering as much support as needed to those ready and wanting to beat their addiction.

If illegal drugs were, instead of being criminalised, treated like tobacco - highly taxed (but not so high that more than a few percent of people choose to buy from illegal sources), made by professional companies (more like other pharmaceuticals in this case than like tobacco m), and therefore possible to buy knowing both that the drugs are pure and knowing their precise doses - then the combination of taxes raised and money saved on the law enforcement side (everything from policing to court costs to prisons) could both fund huge amounts of mental health & addiction treatment and support options, not just for existing drug users but also as a preventative measure to reduce the number of people turning to drugs due to problems in their life or in their mind, AND leave a huge amount more money to be spent in other areas for the good of society. (Sorry for the long sentences, I'm too lazy to properly edit my comment right now).