News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by hammock on Friday November 08, 2024 @10:45AM (#42087691)
>”human capital was strongly transmitted from parents to children”

That doesn’t sound distasteful to me at all. Is that bad?

Can we make a distinction between parents raising their kids and giving them great opportunities, and “nepotism” where people are put in no-show jobs or are wholly incompetent?

It seems like the system of “nepotism” the paper describes is not bad at all, but instead is working well since the paper observes that when passing occupation from father to son would be inefficient/lead to bad social outcomes, it happens far less

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by swatcoder on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:37AM (#42088172)
We currently live in a society that valorizes meritocracy and equal opportunity and also providing for one's descendants. It supposes that you're you should have equal opportunity to enjoy a middle class or greater lifestyle if you're not a total mess, and that your success is something you can provide to your children as a leg up.

Not every society struggles/struggled so poignantly with the contradiction between those things as we now do, but we do, and that's where the modern criticism of nepotism originates.

Teaching your children your trade by inviting them into your workshop or boardroom is sensible, but it inevitably means that there's less room in that workshop or boardroom for the scrappy, bright outsider whose supposed to have a fair chance.

There's not really one right answer under that kind of tension, so there's no surprise when criticism is levied in either direction.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by adamc on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:44AM (#42088244)
Well... the "right answer" is going to be subjective. But I think parents providing for their children is going to win out 1000 times out of 1000. It's got human psychology and biology behind it.

If doing what is "right" means I have to hamstring my kid's chances, then I'm going to pass on "right" (or, more likely, re-orient my thinking to make it not "right") and help my kid.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by staunton on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:57AM (#42088348)
You seem to be claiming that nepotism is good and that it is prevalent in all societies. Surely I misunderstood?

Most societies do demand that workers for important roles be selected on merit or based on other criteria known to all participants, and not based on some individual's wish to care for their family or friends.

This is without anyone thinking of such a wish as illegitimate. However , acting on it is still nepotism and societies impose this prohibition on its members because it benefits all. In this sense, "parents providing for their children" is "losing out" in certain important domains all around the world.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by swatcoder on Friday November 08, 2024 @12:28PM (#42088630)
> Most societies do demand that workers for important roles be selected on merit or based on other criteria known to all participants

Most societies become pretty practical after a while, and strive for people to be reliable and adequate for the roles they're appointed to play and celebrate the occasional master of some craft or pursuit. Being groomed for an opportunity from childhood, under the attention of one's family, often delivers on those and so a lot of societies don't worry about it except when it's obvious that somebody completely incompetent has ended up responsible for some influential or essential role.

It's actually a very peculiar modern experiment to expect every role to somehow be filled by the most capable person and for every person to be appointed a role that they're personally passionate about. Maybe it'll give us some amazing Star Trek utopia someday, but you don't see that idea expressed very much in history and so we don't really have reason to know what will happen if we try to make it so.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by staunton on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:29PM (#42091276)
There's a very long history of trying to establish merit-based selection of government officials in, e.g., china. That's not to say there wasn't a lot of nepotism anyway, but I think it's also undeniable that the state was trying to reduce it, rather than just accepting it as normal and unavoidable.

Nowadays I would also guess that the majority of people across the globe live in societies where nepotism is conceived of as bad. There might still be various amounts of it but people generally tend to discourage or punish nepotism when they can.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by jltsiren on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:32PM (#42091293)
It's not enough to strive for people to be reliable and adequate. You need a system that selects reliably for such people. Being groomed for a job from childhood is not reliable enough. Many people will be good enough for the job, but many will not. The problem becomes bigger the higher up you go in the society. Meritocracy won, both in economy and in war, because the people in charge in non-meritocratic societies are too often grossly incompetent.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by adamc on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:37PM (#42091322)
Yeah, this. Also, in most advanced societies, it isn't particularly likely that your kid wants to work at whatever you were doing.

But there are a bunch of services helping "teach the test" for kids going to college/grad school, and in very, very many ways, middle class (or better off) parents do strive to give their kids tons of advantages that other kids do not have. Is it fair that my kid had access to their own computer and all the books they wanted to read, etc., when others didn't? No, but parents are still going to help their kids.

If we had something resembling a really fair system, kids and adults of any age would be able to take classes and learn whatever, with as much help as they needed. It would be expensive, but fair. That isn't what we have.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by johnnyanmac on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:24PM (#42090941)
Given the age of this piece, where it was common to determine your kids' spouses well before they can conceptualize what marriange is, I can see nepotism being farther down the list of great immoral acts.

But yes, I would argue nepotism is prevalent in nearly all societies.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by michaelt on Friday November 08, 2024 @12:32PM (#42088682)
It's pretty easy to give your kid loads of advantages without engaging in nepotism. The definition of nepotism is actually very narrow!

You can teach them your trade. You can show them that education is important, modelling and rewarding behaviours like reading. You can make sure you've got time to be there for them. You can introduce them to your friends in other lines of work. You can check their homework and help them when they struggle, within reason. You can make sure they never need a part-time job to get by while in school. You can get them tutors whenever they're having trouble. You can get them extra tuition outside school. You can pay for them to go to a great college. You can cover their living expenses when they're working an unpaid internship. You can invest in their startup. You can assure you that even if their startup crashes and burns, you'll make sure they always have a roof over their head and food in their belly. You can buy them a house, pay their bills, gift them millions of dollars.

And you can hire them to work for you - as long as you make a point to clearly not favour them in the workplace, by insisting they work hard every day, don't use your name, and that they start at the bottom and work their way up on their own merits.

And you can overlap these things! In your role as CEO give them an unpaid internship in the mailroom of your company, and in your role as a parent give them a $10,000/month allowance? Technically not nepotism.

The only things you can't do is give them undeserved promotions, or hire them directly into a senior job.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by lo_zamoyski on Friday November 08, 2024 @01:32PM (#42089276)
And it doesn't need to be the mail room (though that's not a bad thing to have exposure to, perhaps, but circumstances will determine what's appropriate). The most important thing is not to put them in a position that harms[0] the company and that they're not (at least not yet) qualified for. This is not only bad for the company, but for the child, as they are not put a position that allows them to grow, but one in which they can't help but fail in. So it's a failure of parenting.

[0] "Harm" doesn't need to be catastrophic. Misuse of company funds is a kind of theft, and paying someone a salary who is basically on perpetual holiday is unjust, for example.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by MisterBastahrd on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:58AM (#42088360)
No, we can't, because it rarely ever works out that way.

I've yet to work at a family owned company where the children were anywhere near as competent as their parents, and I've worked at multigenerational companies, so imagine that.

The one I spent the most time with was a publisher whose founders were Tulane educated intellectuals who walked the walk and talked the talk. The next generation sounded like they fell off an alligator tour air boat with the intellect to match. Their children are the dumbest group of human beings I've ever seen graduate from high school. Utterly and completely useless for anything other than getting hammered on the weekends and keeping random desk chairs from rolling away. Yet they were guaranteed jobs, even as the company's numbers continued to dwindle and they continued to use far more resources than they contributed. No Christmas bonus? That's because they needed to pay these morons enough to live in the same neighborhood as their father, meaning that they needed to make about 80% more than anyone else in their roles.

Ownership is not leadership. Leadership takes a set of skills that many people don't possess, and it's less common with the children of the well-off.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by hammock on Friday November 08, 2024 @02:58PM (#42089987)
That is likely to be true if we take a limited firm-centric view (the local shop will never be the best it can be if the next guy has to be the first son of the last guy). But having a multigenerational shop and shopkeeper, or farms and farmers, may be better for the larger community than a Walmart headquartered in another country or a commercial farm that couldn't give two shits about the locals.

Not saying it is better, but in some cases it probably is. Certainly could be in some cases

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by novakboskov on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:52AM (#42088308)
Nah, we can't. We can't redefine words to make us feel better.

According to Cambridge Dictionary, nepotism is "the act of using your power or influence to get good jobs or unfair advantages for members of your own family." As soon as you favored your kid, it's nepotism, and it's bad. It undermines meritocracy and contributes to an unjust society. It's pretty straightforward to understand.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by cynicalsecurity on Friday November 08, 2024 @03:48PM (#42090349)
Define unfair.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by octopoc on Friday November 08, 2024 @04:02PM (#42090450)
If there is someone better suited that could have had the position, then it’s unfair.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by chongli on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:26PM (#42090958)
Doesn't that just reward the children of families who can pay for private tutoring and other resources that give them an advantage over the competition?
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by devilbunny on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:30PM (#42091279)
As someone who has been a private tutor, the only advantage most kids got was that they passed the class badly instead of failing it. They were not standouts. The kids who are standouts - and I was one of them, which is why I was so recommended - need guidance sometimes, but largely get it on their own (and especially when they have to teach their fellow students - if you can't explain it, you don't really know it). I tutored a few smart students who were just weak in one area and needed to reinforce their basic understanding, but most of them just didn't care about wasting time and money, because it was my time and parents' money. I needed the cash, though. I never lied to parents about potential and I really tried to help. But there's only so much you can do when an ADHD kid won't attend to the lessons, or has some issues with their parents.

One of the things that modern life has messed up is the idea that you should always be happy. No, sometimes you just have to accept that what you are doing sucks, that you will have to power through it, and that's life.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by sharkjacobs on Friday November 08, 2024 @04:13PM (#42090523)
If you just keep reading, a couple sentences later they say "It undermines meritocracy" which makes it pretty clear what "unfair" means in the context of that comment.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by chongli on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:25PM (#42090949)
Right, but that definition is so incredibly broad as to include any and all ways you might provide for your children. If you're wealthy and you use your money to buy more expensive, healthier food for your kids then that could be argued to be "using your power or influence to get an unfair advantage for members of your own family" since many other families can't afford that better food.

More broadly, the issue of "unfair advantages" and the demonization of those who have them is explored rather poignantly in the short story Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut [1]. The story takes place in a dystopian future where beautiful people are forced to wear masks to make their faces look ugly, those with beautiful voices have to use devices to make their voices sound awful, and anyone with above-average intelligence has to wear a radio headset which constantly plays annoying and distracting noises to prevent them from thinking too deeply. The title character is forced to endure multiple of these "handicaps", including heavy weights to slow him down and tire him out so that he cannot make use of his athletic gifts.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by johnnyanmac on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:28PM (#42090970)
We do it all the time. Let's see what was added to cambridge this past month:

- fridgescaping

- Fanum tax

- Quit-Tok

- runglasses

- boomerocracy

- appification

And that does include adding definitions to existing words. "Literally" can also be defined by its antonym.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by watwut on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:04AM (#42087865)
The article is not about toddlers. It is about adult children.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by potato3732842 on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:12AM (#42087929)
You're missing the point.

Teaching your skills and strengths to your kid and eventually giving them or helping them (within the bounds of what's acceptable and ethical) get a job they're qualified for is good. This is basically how every mutli generational family business works.

Giving an unqualified kid a no-show job or a real job they f-up is nepotism and bad.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by lo_zamoyski on Friday November 08, 2024 @01:22PM (#42089191)
> Teaching your skills and strengths to your kid and eventually giving them or helping them [...] get a job they're qualified for is good.

Indeed. If some people are claiming that somehow giving your own child, uh, what shall I say, priority (?) and your full attention, teaching them skills and transmitting wisdom, and getting them opportunities is somehow bad, then sorry, but that's shockingly stupid, evil, and misanthropic. Doing these things basically describes what is more or less a core duty of parenthood. A parent has the obligation to prioritize his own children. The idea that such generational advantage is nepotism screams of envy. Inequality of opportunity is not unfair or wrong. Indeed, one of the purposes of meritocracy is to become better off so that you can give your own kids a better start than you had. It's wonderful to be able to give your kids opportunities that you have access to.

I think people are failing to distinguish two things, namely, prioritizing your own kin on the one hand, and on the other, prioritizing kinship favors at the gross expense of the common good. (At least that's the most charitable interpretation. The less charitable one is that the have-nots are just envious and feel entitled. There is no point in discussing anything with such twisted people.)

If a baker wants to hire his son, that's perfectly fine and completely his business. He doesn't have to open up the pool to check off some ridiculous meritocracy checkbox. It's his bakery. Of course, if he puts his son in a position of authority that he is grossly unsuited for, well, then he imperils his own business. Oh, well.

In a larger organization that's private, there is nothing wrong with hiring your own kid, either. Putting him in a position that he is completely unsuited for threatens the company, of course, and in that sense is simply stupid. It can also be argued that the company is harming the common good of the company. Private ownership doesn't mean you don't have certain moral obligations toward your employees. Good leadership is one such obligation, and putting an incompetent child in a position that harms the company is a failure of leadership.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by pdimitar on Friday November 08, 2024 @12:26PM (#42088618)
> Can we make a distinction between parents raising their kids and giving them great opportunities, and “nepotism” where people are put in no-show jobs or are wholly incompetent?

That difference is only on paper, purely academical. In reality, almost all the time, this quickly morphs into pushing your kin into positions of power where they make a mess but you still tolerate them because supposedly they are at least somewhat predictable and you don't want to invest the time and effort to build trust with a stranger.

(Or whatever their actual motivation is -- to me it remains mostly a mystery.)

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by netcan on Friday November 08, 2024 @01:09PM (#42089041)
Honestly, I think "nepotism" and "occupational persistence" are more about how we feel or judge the phenomenon, and what are prior expectations are.

If sons and nephews are bad managers and a business suffers... that's nepotism. If they're good managers and the business succeeds, that's a family business. if the local authorities hire family... that's nepotism, because we have an expectation that it should be done differently.

A lot of words are like this. Positive and negative words with positive or negative associations that we use to describe the same thing... depending on the association we want to emphasize.

But once homo retcom has words... we think in those words. So, we think of nepotism (for example) as this distinct thing, and expect this nuanced definition to account for the negative or positive aspects.

This paper is basically a formalization of that process.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by SoftTalker on Friday November 08, 2024 @01:22PM (#42089192)
I think it's fine in a true "family business" e.g. you wholly own a hardware store or a restaurant and you have your family working there and eventually you hand it off to your children (assuming they want it).

In large public companies or institutions that have shareholders or state owners then it's unfair for an executive or senior administrator to carve out a job for a family member. He's giving them something he doesn't own, unlike in the family business example.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by meindnoch on Friday November 08, 2024 @03:01PM (#42090012)
Shareholders can put pressure on the board to fire the exrcutive. If they don't, that means they're fine with the situation.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by axus on Friday November 08, 2024 @04:47PM (#42090726)
As a shareholder in many companies, I cannot put pressure on a board, and I'm mostly unaware of how they are internally managed.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by johnnyanmac on Friday November 08, 2024 @05:11PM (#42090876)
Shareholders are basically fine with fraud as long a they benefit in the end .
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by fooker on Friday November 08, 2024 @02:03PM (#42089548)
What fraction of ownership would make it okay?

100% ? 50% ? Something in the middle?

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by cynicalsecurity on Friday November 08, 2024 @03:46PM (#42090334)
50% + 1 share.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by esperent on Friday November 08, 2024 @09:45PM (#42092192)
Even in the family business, there should be limits. What if the family business becomesand empire worth >20% of a contries GDP - e.g. Samsung. It is absolutely not reasonable to pass this amount of wealth to children of the founder.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by SoftTalker on Friday November 08, 2024 @11:04PM (#42092467)
Samsung is a public company no? It's not family-owned as far as I can see.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by maeil on Saturday November 09, 2024 @12:06AM (#42092659)
This is correct money-wise. Samsung Group's market cap is around $400-500 billion, while its chairman (the family head) is estimated to be worth $10-15 billion.

It's not as correct decision-making influence-wise. The power balance of "family vs remaining shareholders" is different from what would be assumed purely based on those numbers.

It can be said that Samsung C&T is the actual head subsidiary/control vehicle through which the other subsidiaries are run at the top level, and the family is easily the biggest shareholder in C&T.

The KOSPI, which is what the subsidiaries are listed on (the "group" is not listed), is seen as a bit of a joke by both foreign and domestic investors for that reason. Besides its obvious downsides, it does have upsides as well - the "sacrifice everything for the short-term stock price" that is the norm in the US is less common in Korea for this reason. Corporations work differently.

Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by achierius on Saturday November 09, 2024 @02:10AM (#42092976)
Samsung is not a family business in the legal sense of the term: it has shareholders and is thus nominally accountable to the public.
Re:The evolution of nepotism in academia, 1088-1800 by 73kl4453dz on Friday November 08, 2024 @06:10PM (#42091194)
It seems to me that academia grew out of the church doctors who grew out of the knighthood: thé eldest son of an aristocrat would inherit the land without lifting a finger, but to earn their spurs they needed to convince existing knights they were capable of doing equivalent work in the field. So, out of major feudal institutions, it was among the least nepotist.