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Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by Clamchop on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @06:35PM (#41793502)
TFA literally already says what you said. They're making a reasonable distinction between chewing coca leaves for mild stimulant effect and huffing a fat rail of the pure stuff.

It gives the wrong idea to say these 17th century people were doing cocaïne.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by Mtinie on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @06:49PM (#41793634)
They were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure, but it’s still using the same substance for a psychoactive effect.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @07:46PM (#41794040)
> were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure

I was going to say this is pedantically correct, but on closer inspection, it's not even that. Cocaine, the chemical, is present in both coca leaves and cocaine, the drug. When people say cocaine--particularly in this context--they're referring to cocaine the drug, not cocaine the chemical.

Cocaine the drug and cocaine the chemical are homonyms, and it's incorrect--fully technically--to confuse their use.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by philwelch on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @08:54PM (#41794473)
Cocaine, the chemical, is the active drug ingredient in coca leaves the same way caffeine, the chemical, is the active ingredient in coffee and ethanol, the chemical, is the active ingredient in beer. Powder and crack cocaine deliver much higher doses of cocaine than raw coca leaves, much like liquor is more potent than beer, but the chemical is the drug here. It’s not like it’s chemically transformed from one substance into another like with fermentation; it’s concentrated, like with distillation.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by JumpCrisscross on Thursday October 10, 2024 @01:25AM (#41795808)
> It’s not like it’s chemically transformed from one substance into another like with fermentation

Banks, the financial institutions, are not transformed into banks, exposed riverbeds, when they're proximate to water. Cocaine, the drug, and cocaine, the chemical, are simply homonyms. Claiming the Inca did cocaine is a dad joke, not serious argument.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by wafflemaker on Thursday October 10, 2024 @04:43AM (#41796881)
While I see sense in articulating that cocaine use was different in 17th c. compared to now, I don't believe that you'd argue the same against someone saying that a person drinking beer is drinking alcohol, because beer has less alcohol than vodka.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by nicoburns on Thursday October 10, 2024 @06:10AM (#41797318)
To make this analogous, the words for "alcohol" and "vodka" would have to be the same. The OP is arguing that when people say "doing cocaine" they are generally referring to the high-strength powdered form, not the underlying chemical in general.

And that if we interpret the sentence like that (which we should if that's how it's generally understood) then it is not true that people were doing cocaine in the 17th century.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by umanwizard on Thursday October 10, 2024 @07:52AM (#41797917)
Random tangent: now I’m curious if there are any languages where the word for alcohol and vodka (or whatever is locally the most common spirit) is the same. Seems plausible that there would be.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by kasey_junk on Thursday October 10, 2024 @08:39AM (#41798220)
Scottish?
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by nicoburns on Thursday October 10, 2024 @09:24AM (#41798537)
The word vodka is apparently derived from the Slavic word for water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka#Etymology
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by umanwizard on Thursday October 10, 2024 @09:34AM (#41798642)
The word "whisky" is derived from the Scottish Gaelic word for "water", too. (Maybe that's what your sibling comment is referring to?)
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by philwelch on Thursday October 10, 2024 @10:47AM (#41799403)
Cocaine hydrochloride (i.e. powder) isn’t even the only purified form of cocaine. There’s also crack. Would you argue that people who smoke crack aren’t doing cocaine?

Furthermore, the most purified form of drinking ethanol actually is called “grain alcohol”; Everclear is a popular brand.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by JumpCrisscross on Thursday October 10, 2024 @12:46PM (#41800713)
> Would you argue that people who smoke crack aren’t doing cocaine?

Yes. This is true colloquially and legally.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by philwelch on Thursday October 10, 2024 @11:02AM (#41799574)
The only unserious argument here is your absurd analogy to banks. A homonym is when two words have totally unrelated meanings. Cocaine is the psychoactive drug found in coca leaves; we refer to cocaine hydrochloride (i.e. powder cocaine) as “cocaine” for the same reason we refer to Everclear as “grain alcohol”.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by BobaFloutist on Thursday October 10, 2024 @12:53PM (#41800787)
When people drink coffee, they don't say "I'm taking caffeine."

When people eat poppyseed bagels they don't say they're doing codeine or morphine.

It's generally understood that "smoking weed" is likely to be a different experience than "taking THC"

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by philwelch on Friday October 11, 2024 @02:10AM (#41806697)
Poppyseed bagels don’t have a psychoactive dose of opioids and cannabis contains multiple cannabinoids, so those examples are totally irrelevant.

When it comes to coffee, people are generally aware that caffeine is the active ingredient. If you ask someone, “have you had any caffeine today?”, they’re not going to say “no” if they’ve had six cups of coffee. They’re going to say, “yes, I’ve had six cups of coffee”. They’re not going to try and pick a tedious argument that they didn’t really have caffeine because they drank coffee instead of snorting crushed up caffeine pills.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by kragen on Thursday October 10, 2024 @02:04AM (#41795995)
Cocaine, the drug, is cocaine, the chemical. They're literally exactly the same thing. They're not homonyms.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by JumpCrisscross on Thursday October 10, 2024 @02:06AM (#41796006)
> Cocaine, the drug, is cocaine, the chemical

Nope. Cocaine, the drug, is a cocaine salt. Commonly cocaine hydrochloride, but Wikipedia seems convinced it's also neutralised into sulfates and nitrates. Crack contains cocaine, the chemical, but is not cocaine, the drug.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by solumunus on Thursday October 10, 2024 @04:17AM (#41796720)
I’m genuinely flabbergasted by these posts.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by northhanover on Thursday October 10, 2024 @06:45AM (#41797503)
You are flabbergasted that an argumentative, person with autism would spend all night arguing crackhead semantics?
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by kragen on Thursday October 10, 2024 @02:14AM (#41796051)
You're saying that freebase cocaine isn't "cocaine, the drug", but chlorides and sulfates are? It may be relevant to this discussion that salts dissociate in solution, but maybe it won't convince you because it sounds like you're steering painfully close to "the sun goes around the earth because people say 'the sun rises', and therefore it doesn't make sense to talk about sunrise on Mars."

That is, it sounds like you're trying to bend over backwards to invent a coherent meaning to impose on the utterances of people who are just confused and ignorant, with the result that your own utterances are losing meaning. The reason people say things like "crack isn't cocaine, the drug" and "coca leaves don't contain cocaine" isn't that their utterances refer to some coherent entity called "cocaine, the drug", which consists of some arbitrary collection of cocaine salts but excludes the hydroxide. They're just wrong, because being wrong is a thing that people do a lot, especially when they're talking about things they don't know about, like chemistry.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by JumpCrisscross on Thursday October 10, 2024 @12:48PM (#41800744)
> saying that freebase cocaine isn't "cocaine, the drug", but chlorides and sulfates are

Yes. So does the DEA. We had separate charges for “cocaine” and “crack” for decades, with the former referring to the powdered salt and the latter to the base. The fact that the active compound is identical is irrelevant.

> They're just wrong, because being wrong is a thing that people do a lot, especially when they're talking about things they don't know about, like chemistry

We’re talking about language. Not chemistry per se.

Someone saying someone doing crack is doing cocaine is simply incorrect in a colloquial context. Sort of like how tomatoes are culinarily a vegetable even if botanically they are fruits.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by mrguyorama on Thursday October 10, 2024 @02:02PM (#41801464)
I mean, taking your definitions from the DEA for cocaine is just wrong. Even if you believe it to be meaningful, it is US-centric to a fault, and government definitions of things are not meant to generalize.

Crack is "crack cocaine". It is a Form of cocaine.

The separation of "cocaine" and "crack" was a policy and marketing choice, in order to make it possible that a black person would get 20 years for dealing the same drug that would only get a white person 5 years.

The people chewing coca leaves before the 1800s were doing so in order to consume the cocaine within.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by DonHopkins on Thursday October 10, 2024 @09:37PM (#41805289)
While the white people consuming the cocaine were only doing it because they liked the smell, so they only get 5 years. ;)

Cocaine makes me feel like a new man. And he wants some too!

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by kragen on Thursday October 10, 2024 @09:32PM (#41805271)
The DEA isn't even trying to say true things instead of false things; they routinely describe cocaine as a "narcotic" and lithium as a "methamphetamine precursor", because such lies enable them to increase their jurisdiction beyond what enabling statute law or public opinion would tolerate.

Someone saying that doing crack is doing cocaine is simply correct in a colloquial context. If the DEA says they are incorrect, they are simply bullshitting due to political incentives.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by sinkasapa on Thursday October 10, 2024 @02:46AM (#41796237)
I suppose the better term would be synecdoche, since the similarity in pronunciation isn't coincidental, like "The sun rose in the morning." and "Look at the pretty rose petals." but is a form of motivated polysemy.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by sinkasapa on Thursday October 10, 2024 @03:01AM (#41796307)
It definitely seems misleading to talk about coca leaf use as cocaine use, given the common expectation for what that means. People reading the newspaper probably don't know all these details, and it isn't spelled out. I can't imagine some guy in a club not feeling like he was robbed after paying for a powdery drug and then receiving a handful of leaves. I can't imagine an Andean woman sitting down for morning tea being pleased to have a bunch of powder dumped in her cup.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by Mtinie on Thursday October 10, 2024 @07:50AM (#41797903)
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Cocaine

Does the molecule C17H21NO4 exist in both the raw, dried leaves of the coca plant, and a powdered, refined extract from the same plant?

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by xnorswap on Thursday October 10, 2024 @08:45AM (#41798257)
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by Mtinie on Thursday October 10, 2024 @09:51AM (#41798819)
Perfect response. I'm chuckling, so thank you.

What's also humorous to me is this entire discussion is centered around vernacular usage of a word versus the scientific definition. Cocaine is cocaine, but "cocaine" means different things to some people and not to others.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by DonHopkins on Thursday October 10, 2024 @09:33PM (#41805276)
Bullshit is bullshit, but "bullshit" means different things to some people and not to others.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by Mtinie on Monday October 14, 2024 @06:15PM (#41842653)
Which part is bullshit? The discussion, generally or the pedantic point that the active compound is the same in the various presentations people are arguing about?
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by IAmGraydon on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @08:49PM (#41794440)
You must misunderstand what I said if you think the article says the same thing. As someone already mentioned to you, the article says “cocaine was being used in the 17th century by literally no one” when using cocaine is literally exactly what they were doing. It’s just the same as someone saying “no one was using caffeine in the 17th century…they were just drinking coffee.” You honestly don’t understand why that is blatantly wrong?
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by Clamchop on Thursday October 10, 2024 @12:45PM (#41800700)
If this were a passage in a reading comprehension exam, I think you would be expected to read "cocaïne didn't exist" as "cocaïne in the form we think of when someone 'does cocaine' didn't exist".

You would be expected to read it this way because the article explicitly elaborates on how cocaine hydrochloride is isolated from leaves (that alone should have stopped you from trying to "inform" anyone), and uses that to drive the main thesis about the industrialization and democratization of drugs.

And that's an entirely self-contained pathway to the correct reading, nevermind what you already knew going into the exercise.

The caffeine analogy is useless because there is no common sense of people using caffeine to very different effect the way there is for cocaïne.

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by brcmthrowaway on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @09:09PM (#41794545)
"TFA" has got to be the most inscrutable acronym that is common internet parlance, I simply can't guess it could be, and I refuse to look it up
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by zdragnar on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @10:14PM (#41794842)
That sounds like a "you" problem, TBH.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by astura on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @10:39PM (#41794956)
TFA means "the fucking article."

It's derived from RTFA, "read the fucking article."

Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by justinator on Thursday October 10, 2024 @12:58AM (#41795661)
"Fine" article, my fine internet stranger.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by astura on Saturday October 12, 2024 @02:49PM (#41821426)
Wrong.
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by justinator on Sunday October 13, 2024 @01:29PM (#41829811)
Por qué no los dos, amigo?
Re:On 17th Century "Cocaine" by KTibow on Thursday October 10, 2024 @12:27AM (#41795504)
I don't think it's that common. This is my first time seeing it, and it's an odd acronym for including "the". I was able to guess at its meaning though.