News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 07, 2024 @02:10PM (#41769054)
> 61.5% of Germany's electricity comes from renewable sources

Now. For years they switched to coal. Even today, Germany falls to the siren songs of the gas lobby, who promise a €1.5tn investment into gas infrastructure will be happily written off for the sake of the planet.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by dyauspitr on Monday October 07, 2024 @03:21PM (#41769901)
Well then it sounds like they are progressing in the right direction. If in the future you get to a point where 80% of all energy is renewable and 20% are peaker plants that’s a pretty good place to be in. I’m all for nuclear but a 1 in a 1000 year event causing a nuclear spill, say by the Danube, that makes multiple countries unlivable is a pretty scary proposition. That being said, I have no idea what the state of the art is when it comes to nuclear power plants so maybe plants are very, very safe now.
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by Krasnol on Monday October 07, 2024 @02:22PM (#41769210)
FYI: In Germany the same companies who have nuclear reactors, have coal, gas and renewables. They do not lobby against themselves. Therefore, your "lobby" phrases do not work for Germany. You should stop repeating that. It only shows that you have not sufficient knowledge to participate in this discussion.
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by TheGamerUncle on Monday October 07, 2024 @03:04PM (#41769710)
ok but lol you are still obviously denying and acting blind to the fact that for many many years, that neither we will nor our lungs will get back, coal had to be ramped up and overused in Germany, Nuclear is safe and effective and until we actually solve the battery problem most of the world should switch to nuclear if we want to survive, Yale has tried to fit the numbers on many occasions but not even them can disagree that nuclear is required
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by locallost on Monday October 07, 2024 @03:11PM (#41769802)
> ok but lol you are still obviously denying and acting blind to the fact that for many many years, that neither we will nor our lungs will get back, coal had to be ramped up and overused in Germany

This simply isn't true. Coal use for electricity has been declining consistently in Germany and especially since the first shutdowns of nuclear plants (cca 2011). And the replacement was not natural gas as in e.g. the US.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by ludwigschubert on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @02:50AM (#41774428)
Here’s a chart of Germany’s energy mix over the last 30 years:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?time...

Looks like coal usage for electricity production indeed only went up for ~3 years around 2011, probably we can consider that a mere blip within the downward trend.

Wind and solar indeed seem to pick up what nuclear used to bring to the energy mix. Gas usage is only slightly up over 30 years, which doesn’t look like it’s directly substituting nuclear — but surely it could have gone down had nuclear be kept around?

(Personally, I wish politics would have pushed harder against coal and simply ignored nuclear for a couple more decades. But political feasibility is important ofc, and I don’t know how hard of a sell that would have been in 2010.)

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by locallost on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @01:58PM (#41780001)
I don't know what would've surely happened. It's easy to think well if they did this not that all the positives would remain they'd just be better. I think life is more complicated than that.

In general what I think is people make a pariah out of Germany and its energy choices, but this is mostly based on false data, which tells me enough. The debate is riddled with false data which lead to even worse conclusions. In the end the numbers are positive and that's all what's important for me. There are better candidates for criticism when looked at individually or even globally, what the individual strategies accomplish on a global scale. So when looked at globally, the German energy transition has accomplished a ton. E.g. the 600TW of solar this year never would've happened without it, which more than offsets the 10-15GW of nuclear they switched off, most of which was past its retirement age.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by legulere on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:37PM (#41770754)
Nuclear was replaced by renewables, not by coal: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Energiemix_Deutschla... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_generati...

A point you certainly can argue about, is that coal should have been replaced by renewables before nuclear, but that discussion is over now.

For gas use electricity production is just a minor use. Most gas is consumed by industry and for heating purposes. Not enough happened in Germany in the last years electrifying them.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:09PM (#41771094)
> coal should have been replaced by renewables before nuclear, but that discussion is over now

Right. Coal stayed online where it would have otherwise gone away. That was true for close to a decade.

> gas use electricity production is just a minor

And growing. Look at your own chart. The change in natural gas electrical generation is about as large as solar’s entire controbution.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by imtringued on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @02:20AM (#41774297)
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by jamesknelson on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @12:07AM (#41773731)
Nuclear wasn’t completely replaced. The graphs you link to show that Germany’s electricity generation have dropped to the level it was at in the year 2000, and that’s before the last of the nuclear plants were turned off.

As a result, Germany’s industrial production is falling. Which will be great for the environment if countries who previously imported goods produced by Germany’s clean nuclear power don’t just switch to goods produced by China and South East Asia’s far dirtier electricity.

Of course, China is steadily increasing its own nuclear energy production, so it’ll end up being clean eventually, and likely sooner than us given how efficient they are.

But it’s not like we’re reducing dependency on nuclear power. It’s more like we’re trading the risk of nuclear accident in our own backyards for something else. I tend to think that the something else is the risk that the eastern world’s factories stop accepting the western world’s increasingly worthless paper money, which they’ll be in a much stronger position to do once we’re no longer able to manufacture what we need due to environmental concerns.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by nl on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @12:57AM (#41773971)
> As a result, Germany’s industrial production is falling

The causality here seems debatable.

Cheap Chinese goods which take market share from German goods aren't just cheap because of cheap energy.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by otherme123 on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @01:53AM (#41774184)
It's true that energy intensive industry has been hit hard in Germany. But is also true that the sector has been heavily subsidized for decades. As the carbon mining sector. That was effectively paying the energy cost of those industries with taxes.

In Spain, where we didn's shut down nuclear energy nor have oil or coal, energy intensive industry is also threatening or shutting down (https://www.miningweekly.com/article/alcoa-threatens-to-shut...). The threats are barely hidden "subsidize our costs or else...".

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by natmaka on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @01:46AM (#41774163)
Indeed: if cheap (for the consumer, not for the taxpayer...) nuclear electricity was sufficient France industry would thrive. Reality: it (sadly) is dying.
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by virtue3 on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @03:26AM (#41774600)
Here are some key events in Germany's nuclear phase-out: 1998 A coalition government includes the phasing out of nuclear power in its policy

(this was later un-done in 2009 and then redone in 2011 which is the cause of confusion).

IE. Germany got INCREDIBLY lucky that China went hard into renewables and dropped the price of them dramatically. Because they did basically replace or plan to replace all the nuclear plants with coal plants.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by Moldoteck on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @04:17AM (#41774911)
it was replaced by coal,gas and exports. With nuclear, much less of them would have been used, as simple as that
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by ViewTrick1002 on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @04:42AM (#41775075)
The nuclear exit began in earnest in 2011.

Lets have a look at how the German electricity production has shifted over the years:

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/p...

- Fossil gas: 2011 -> 2023 = stable.

- Coal: 2011 -> 2023 = large reduction

At the height of the energy crisis when half the French nuclear fleet was off line due to corrosion issues.

Germany temporarily reopened a few mothballed coal power plants to keep the lights on in France.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/business/nuclear-power-fr...

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by Moldoteck on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @04:58AM (#41775186)
Man I know this. But the simple undeniable fact is - if nuclear was kept on - even less gas and coal would have been used, it's an obvious thing. Renewables did help ditching some of fossil generation, but with nuclear it would have been even more
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by pfdietz on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @04:16PM (#41781415)
And that's different from "it was replaced by coal".

You should probably have started with a correct statement, not a falsehood that you had to rephrase into a correct statement.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by Moldoteck on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @04:38AM (#41785752)
in the end it's the same. Replaced with coal&gas = more coal&gas was used than it would have been needed with nuclear on
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday October 09, 2024 @08:37AM (#41787236)
Which again is a completely different argument than what you started with. The argument was that nuclear power was replaced with coal and gas.

As we've concluded it evidently was not. Both coal and nuclear power has been replaced with renewables.

I would suggest you stop spreading falsehoods.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by imtringued on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @02:14AM (#41774277)
This is a popular internet myth. The actual data shows that coal consumption is way down and even in the year of the shutdown the percentage of coal/gas went up by an insignificant amount.
Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by preisschild on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @02:40AM (#41774391)
Because more and more energy-intensive industries are shutting down their factories in Germany.

Those require a large amount of baseload energy.

Re:Fukushima Reactor: TEPCO robot aims to extract nuclear fuel by pfdietz on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @04:18PM (#41781435)
Nevertheless, "nuclear was replaced by coal" is a lie, and remains a lie.