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A comment on 1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all lived in the same place. Parent comment

Re:1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all li... by narrator on Thursday September 12, 2024 @04:24PM (#41525127)
Gnosticism has the pattern that there is a demiurge that created this world as a prison. This is the capitalist economy. Gnosticism says that those initiated into secret knowledge will become of aware of the real nature of the world and seek to wake everyone else up. This is the idea of the revolution fixing all problems and bringing about the great communist utopia by transferring all capital ownership to the state. Marx doesn't say a whole lot about how the Utopia would actually operate, those were details Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky were figuring out in Vienna.

Hermeticism, specifically the emerald tablet, says that we can make things become believable by just willing them with our minds. Those who believe the things should be treated preferentially, and those who don't should be persecuted because they stand in the way of the implementation of those things. This applies to Marx's beliefs in the labor theory of value among other totally non-empirically backed beliefs being treated as ideological indisputable truth.

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Re:1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all li... by llamaz on Thursday September 12, 2024 @05:47PM (#41525919)
The credit for the labour theory of value goes to Adam Smith, specifically the Wealth of Nations. Whether it was true or not is a separate question, but it was based on empirical data available at the time. Marx is usually credited with it because he altered it, and saw a flaw in Adam Smith's version. The idea that "what something costs is what people are willing to pay for it" was something Adam Smith was familiar with and addressed in the Wealth of Nations.

> Those who believe the things should be treated preferentially, and those who don't should be persecuted because they stand in the way of the implementation of those things.

The Gnostics and followers of Hermes were one of the most hounded and persecuted groups throughout history. The Cathars were wiped out, and Giordano Bruno, an early proponent of the Copernican model of the solar system was burnt at the stake by the inquisition. It seems to be the other way around.

> Hermeticism, specifically the emerald tablet, says that we can make things become believable by just willing them with our minds.

I don't think this is correct, but I can't prove a negative.

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Re:1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all li... by otabdeveloper4 on Friday September 13, 2024 @02:39AM (#41528597)
> The Gnostics and followers of Hermes were one of the most hounded and persecuted groups throughout history.

And for good reason, as we later found out in the 20th century.

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Re:1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all li... by llamaz on Friday September 13, 2024 @08:24AM (#41530544)
You're talking about genocide and religious discrimination.

Wikipedia: Raphael Lemkin, who coined the word "genocide" in the 20th century,[110] referred to the Albigensian Crusade as "one of the most conclusive cases of genocide in religious history".[111]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

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Re:1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all li... by jackcosgrove on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:22PM (#41527278)
I thought the demiurge was simply ignorant not malicious. It found itself in a chaotic world and tried to make sense of it. In doing so it mistook itself for a god. That said I'm not an expert in gnosticism.

Whether the truth is found in Sophia or quintessence, I think transcendent claims are the real problem. This applies to both the orthodox traditions in the west as well as the esoteric traditions.

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Re:1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all li... by limit499karma on Friday September 13, 2024 @10:51AM (#41531784)
Gnosticism is not a term that can be used to define a uniform metaphysical system. There are a variety of metaphysical schools that are bundled together in the modern usage. For example, in what German scholars of early 20th century came to call "Iranian Gnosticism" (in reference to Manichaeism [1]) it is in fact the Father of Light that "sacrifices his sons" as 'food for daemons' so that the battle between Light and Darkness is taken to 'their turf'.

> Capitalism

Interestingly enough, another Iranian gnostic school derivative of Zoroastrianism - that of Mazdak [2] - shared everything, including "women".

In general, one should be careful to be quite specific as to what metaphysical school of thought they are referencing when using the currently ambiguous term "Gnosticism". ~

Mani's metaphysical vision is rather wild. I was just reading up on it the other day - apparently he even resorted to diagrams to make things clear.

[1]: https://iranicaonline.org/articles/cosmogony-iii

[2]: https://iranicaonline.org/articles/cosmogony-iv

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Re:1913: When Hitler, Trotsky, Tito, Freud and Stalin all li... by narrator on Saturday September 14, 2024 @07:16PM (#41543823)
One of the criticisms of Gnostisicm, even going back to the ancient Greeks is it never makes positive assertions about what the new world will be like. It's only negative saying things like "all this is illusion," "all this is bad." It never puts up its own program for criticism. So if you say anything about Gnosticism, the Gnostic can just respond, our faith isn't that, it's better than that. However, they never tell you what it actually is so it can be objectively criticized.
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